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ALEXTREBEK
06/07/2008, 01:32 AM
IRRELEVANT NOW, WOOHOO!

Okay, I made this thread in order for me (and I guess whoever wishes to read [the bottom of] this) to accurately figure out how Avoidance, Crit, and other stat increases would affect a Protection Warrior's TPS.

If you plan to say something like, "well, you could have just pulled up an excel threat calculator", you have to understand that the excel etc. threat calculators available are not 100% accurate. For example, they do not calculate extra attacks as a result of Parry Haste on top of a number of other minor flaws. Obviously said flaws really aren't a big deal for most people and purposes, for myself and the purpose of what I am doing in this thread however, they are slightly larger than minor flaws.

Without further adieu...

Boring Math!
-------------------------------------------------
Control Tank

Wep Avg Dmg: 160.5
Wep Speed: 1.6
Attack Power: 600
Block Value: 600
Crit: 15%
Hit: 80 (5.09%)
Expertise: 40 (10% Parry, 5.6% Dodge reduction, 2.4% TDR)
Parry: 20% (4.8% Swing Haste)
Total TDR: 62.4% (60% Avoidance + 2.4% Expertise TDR)
Windfury: N
Executioner: N
Improved Heroic Strike: N
Improved Sunder Armor: Y
4pT6: Y
Debuffed Boss Armor: 3690 (23.58% EDR, originally a 7700 Armor boss)
Healing Threat: 0

Control Tank Threat

Rage Generation

Outgoing Damage

Noncrit: 173 Avg Dmg
Crit: 345 Avg Dmg
Glancing: 112 Avg Dmg
Miss/Dodge/Parry: 0 Dmg

Noncrit Rage: 5
Crit Rage: 10
Glancing Rage: 4

Avg Rage Gen: 5

(5 * .5009) + (10 * .15) + (4 * .25) = 5.005

Rage / Second: 3.125

Incoming Damage

7,000 Dmg Atk / 2 Seconds = 3,500 pDPS

5% Chance to Parry after expertise = 1.2% Swing Haste

1.012 * 3,500 = 3542 pDPS * 2 = 7,084 Dmg Atk / 2 Seconds

7,000 Dmg Ability / 10 Seconds = 700 sDPS

tDPS = 4242

7084 Dmg Atk = 64.5 Rage

7000 Dmg Atk = 63.7 Rage

((64.5 / 2) * (1.018 -.6)) + (63.7 / 10) = 19.99 Rage / Second ~ 20 RPS

Rage Analysis

Total RPS: 23.25

Percent Incoming: 86%

Percent Outgoing: 14%

Threat Generation

Damage Calculations

Shield Slam: ((Base Dmg + (SBV * 1.3) * 1.1) * 1.1))
Heroic Strike: ((Base Wep Dmg + 176))
Revenge: ((Base Dmg + ((2.4 * Atk Pwr) / 14))
Devastate: ((Base Wep Dmg + ((2.4 * Atk Pwr) / 14))

Noncrit

Shield Slam: 1,118.9 Avg Dmg
Auto Attack: 173 Avg Dmg
Heroic Strike: 307 Avg Dmg
Devastate: 201.3 Avg Dmg
Revenge: 430 Avg Dmg

Crit

Shield Slam: 2164.4 Avg Dmg
Auto Attack: 345 Avg Dmg
Heroic Strike: 614 Avg Dmg
Devastate: 402.6 Avg Dmg
Revenge: 860 Avg Dmg

Average

Shield Slam: 1,286.7 Dmg
Auto Attack: 183.6 Dmg
Heroic Strike: 353 Dmg
Devastate: 231.5 Dmg
Revenge: 494.5 Dmg

Threat Calculations

Shield Slam: 2224.6
Auto Attack: 274.5
Heroic Strike: 723.7
Devastate (5S): 522
Revenge: 940.3

Shield Slam / Second = 1/6
Revenge / Second = 1/5
Auto Attack / Second = .6565
Devastate / Second = 19/30

Shield Slam RPS: 2.833
Revenge RPS: .4
Devastate RPS: 5.7
Heroic Strike RPS: 10.625
Shield Block RPS: 2.0

23.25 RPS to spend.

23.25 - 2.833 - .4 - 5.7 - 2 = 12.317 - 10.625 = 1.692 RPS leftover.

Heroic Strike / Second cap = .6565

(.6565 * 723.7) + (522 * (19/30)) + (2224.6 * (1/6)) + (940.3 * (1/5)) = 1,364.5 Threat / Second

1,364.5 * .9009 = 1,229.31 ~ 1,229

Interesting and useful information!
-------------------------------------------------

Unbuffed Control Tank TPS: 1,221

1 RPS Increase = 4.53% TPS Increase (Until Heroic Strike cap is reached.)

Obviously this will decrease by somewhere around 10%-15% (think like a ~4% TPS Increase), with the application of Prayer of Mending, Earth Shield, and Seal of Light.

Not to mention, this will greatly increase if you do not have the 8.933 RPS necessary to keep up a standard GCD rotation (without Shield Block).

1% Crit Increase = 2% RPS [from outgoing dmg] Increase

So basically, although this is more or less neglible, what this is going to mean is that Crit, Hit/Expertise, and Haste/Parry will be slightly more beneficial the less you Heroic Strike, and the higher the ratio of Outgoing RPS:Incoming RPS. Eg. If 50% of your rage is coming from your outgoing damage, your Crit, Hit, and Haste/Parry just got a lot a more valuable.

1% Crit Increase = 0.64% TPS Increase

Once again, this number will slightly increase the less you Heroic Strike, however, TPS gains very slightly more of an increase [than RPS] in such a scenario solely because of the way Heroic Strike threat vs. Auto Attack threat is calculated. This number is the average between 10% and 30% Crit.

0.68% TPS Increase 10%-11% Crit
0.60% TPS Increase 30%-31% Crit

Oh, in case it wasn't implicit, obviously this will decrease by somewhere around 10%-15% (think like a ~.612% TPS Increase), with the application of Prayer of Mending, Earth Shield, and Seal of Light.

I should also mention that this value also increases as your Weapon Speed/Dmg, Block Value, and Attack Power increase, on top of various Set Bonuses/Meta Gems.

1 SBV Increase = 0.31 TPS Increase

Yes, this is averaged quite literally.

1% Avoidance Increase = 2.3% RPS [from incoming pDPS] Decrease

Okay. Avoidance pretty much follows the exact opposite of the trend that offensive modifiers (Crit, Hit, etc.) follow.

What this is going to mean is that Avoidance will be slightly more beneficial the more you Heroic Strike, and the lower the ratio of Outgoing RPS:Incoming RPS. Eg. If only 25% of your rage is coming from your outgoing damage, your Avoidance just became a lot less detrimental to your TPS. Also, as your Avoidance increases, it becomes very slightly more detrimental towards your TPS, the 2.3% Decrease is just an average that was taken of all the Avoidance Increases/Decreases between 25% and 80%, however, it should be understood that the numbers really offer little variation as they grow.

1.188% RPS Decrease: 25% Avoidance --> 26% Avoidance
3.427% RPS Decrease: 80% Avoidance --> 81% Avoidance

Right, here we are again. In case it wasn't completely fucking obvious, this will decrease by somewhere around 10%-15% (think like a 2.205% RPS Dncrease), with the application of Prayer of Mending, Earth Shield, and Seal of Light.

I could write up some numbers real fast in regards to the threat decrease of 1% Avoidance, but honestly, I'm not going to for two major reasons.

That threat decrease is [I]heavily dependant on the amount of Incoming Avoidable DPS in comparison to the amount of Incoming Unavoidable DPS.

Any good tank should understand the concept that a quick mouse-turn is a quick rage increase.
1.1 Agility [1 Agi: BoK] = .021% TPS Increase, .077% RPS [from incoming pDPS] Decrease

Understanding that rage-turning, as it has been coined, really only speeds up rage generation [from incoming pDPS] by 30% - 50%, it should be noted that socketing Agility over Dodge Rating will sufficiently make up for threat lost from pure Dodge on various encounters where high raid efficiency (by raid efficiency, I mean damage reduction) and threat are needed.

In English: Unless you have a lot of high level alternative pieces of gear available for socketing, socket Agility over Dodge Rating.

If you do not have access to alternative Damage Reduction (DR) gear on par with your current DR gear (as a Prot. Warrior), socketing Agility over Dodge Rating will offer you a noticeable increase in your gear's versatility, balance, and overall effectiveness.

The threat value of Agility also increases as you gain Weapon Speed/Dmg, Block Value, and Attack Power, on top of various Set Bonuses/Meta Gems.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyways, there are a few other things (such as Weapon Speed, Attack Power, and Block Value) that I may look into the way I have with Crit, Hit/Expertise, and Haste/Parry. For now however, I have gotten what I have wanted out of this thread/research, and have very little interest in observing any new threat patterns any time soon. If you do happen to have any inquiries as to what some of the nomenclatures I'm using (e.g. pDPS = Physical DPS), I guess if you post here I will answer them.

P.S. I'm sure Blunted will be posting a three-sentence version of this thread in the next few hours.

P.P.S. It will probably be more useful than what I just posted.

P.P.P.S. You should read it.

Original Post Date: June 07, 2008

Midnghtrmblr
06/07/2008, 12:12 PM
Who cares the game isn't that hard.

Intricacy
06/07/2008, 12:32 PM
hard or not can we avoid the full caps title

Azreal
06/07/2008, 01:02 PM
After reading this I'm hard.

Azreal
06/07/2008, 01:02 PM
I lied this is dumb.

DemonTX
06/07/2008, 02:08 PM
i hope to god you're a math major cause otherwise wtf LOVE THINGS?

ALEXTREBEK
06/07/2008, 03:24 PM
Meh, I just made this because it had to be done and no one else has bothered to do it (accurately) yet. I'm in High School btw, Demon.

Pumpkinator
06/07/2008, 03:37 PM
Make one for necromancer on Age of Conan. I suck and my FPS averages 2.

Goretex
06/07/2008, 11:38 PM
Necromancers suck, or so I hear.

Kahrdis
06/08/2008, 06:26 AM
Necros are like sand in the hands of my rogue.

Though it's cool to train 7 fucking pets around with you.

Jahre
06/08/2008, 06:39 AM
Fuck Math.
Fuck Science.
Fuck YOU! You could be in Alterac Valley or doing something useful!

Kahrdis
06/08/2008, 11:29 AM
So how exactly is this teaching me playing a warrior?

Benix
06/08/2008, 01:25 PM
this teaches me that theorycrafting is a big waste of time and WoW isn't complicated to the point where this would be necessary at all

Iluminati
06/08/2008, 01:35 PM
press your buttons harder = solution to everything.

lambach
06/08/2008, 04:41 PM
What a waste of time....
Isnt there a pedophile on here who is actually a succesful warrior instead of a scrub that rides a guilds coat tails and joined as they were dying?

Maybe he wants to make a thread.

mko
06/08/2008, 04:45 PM
rofl trebek getting trolled by timmies galore

ALEXTREBEK
06/08/2008, 07:05 PM
What a waste of time....
Isnt there a pedophile on here who is actually a succesful warrior instead of a scrub that rides a guilds coat tails and joined as they were dying?

Maybe he wants to make a thread. I joined Overrated when they were rebuilding. We progressed from fucking Void Reaver back to Illidari Council in weeks and managed a top 100 Twins kill, before I rerolled Alliance to play with friends in, and help out, DnT. So basically, suck my dick faggot timmy. If you want to give me shit for trying to help out DnT when it was needed, you are seriously fucking retarded.

Oh, by the way, Xav has made threads, they teach timmys like you how to play. Here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/35313-generating-threat.html)'s one of them.

I teach people not so different from Xav how to play with threads like these.

Oh, and change the title of this thread back to what I had it please, it's obviously misleading every timmy and their fucking mom.

lambach
06/08/2008, 11:10 PM
None of that gibberish you write teaches anyone how to play, asshole. And I've been here a lot longer then you, dont pretend you had a twins kill before your rerolled, cause your full of shit. You had a char here before the twins gate was open. And I'm not sure what country you're from. But here in america, "help out" doesnt mean "crash and die".

Just like in the EJ thread, no one cares that you want to write down long math that helps no one, and has been gone over many times before. When wotlk comes out, and there are new abilities, you can do some cool new math, but this is old shit man, and no one cares.

I'm sure it makes you feel like you have a nice big dick, but your still a nobody that get his kicks from spamming shittons of math that dont help anything in real game play. You even point out at the end of your long ramblings that shit doesnt matter, you just turn to fill up your rage real quick.

ALEXTREBEK
06/09/2008, 12:14 AM
None of that gibberish you write teaches anyone how to play, asshole. It was not originally titled what it is, someone re-titled it, which is obviously why it's so misleading. Thanks a lot whoever re-titled it, you should have left my original title. Additionally, the conclusion of this thread points out a major flaw in the way many tanks have been socketing their gear in Sunwell, when I have time, I'll update this thread so said point is far clearer than it is now.
And I've been here a lot longer then you, You're not even in this guild, no one cares how long you have been a fanboy.
dont pretend you had a twins kill before your rerolled, cause your full of shit. You had a char here before the twins gate was open. I was levelling an alt here and raiding with Overrated. In case you didn't catch that, alt, alt, alt.
Just like in the EJ thread, no one cares that you want to write down long math that helps no one, and has been gone over many times before. When wotlk comes out, and there are new abilities, you can do some cool new math, but this is old shit man, and no one cares. I'm sure it makes you feel like you have a nice big dick, but your still a nobody that get his kicks from spamming shittons of math that dont help anything in real game play. It might not help you or anyone else who has zero interest in deciphering how it should be implemented (albeit this is pretty much everyone besides myself and blunted until I update the thread) for that matter, but these are my guild's forums and I can post what the fuck I want here. I do apologize for the misleading (re)title however.

And if someone is completely wrong about a mechanic (especially a pathetically irrelevant one they are making out to be a major one) in a major thread on EJ, I don't see any problem with pointing that out so it can be corrected or deleted.
You even point out at the end of your long ramblings that shit doesnt matter, you just turn to fill up your rage real quick. Turning to 'fill up your rage real quick' only fills up your rage ~30% faster depending on your Parry, Block Value, and Block Rating; ~50% faster if a boss crushes. Speeding things does not make up for the threat lost from socketing Dodge over Agility, which was a subtle point made in this thread.

lambach
06/09/2008, 12:52 AM
I was levelling an alt here and raiding with Overrated. In case you didn't catch that, alt, alt, alt.



Hmm....when did reroll mean "made it my main" and not "created the character". You mispoke, fine.

Perhaps it was the retitle. Rereading it with a title something like "Math to support resocketing agitilty over dodge" actually makes the entire thing totally different. Although I still disagree with your view on how much healing you need vs. how armor increases. (wont get into that here), seems you might be right on the agility thing.

Cont'd thoughts. It seems obvious that agility would provide a slight(maybe more then slight) threat boost over dodge while being less effective at avoidance(again, slightly), but I can really only see 10 agils being maybe used in a full threat suit focusing? Since except for multiple target tanking fights, I really dont see warriors generally having threat issues. If you're trying to just minimized the needed heals per second, why not go for full dodge?


The other option is that this was a very specific thing you and blunted were talking about, and your sunwell regemming comment has me thinking it out too broadly.

Kahrdis
06/09/2008, 01:03 AM
I appologise for unleashing the lambach,although it's entertaining :>

mko
06/09/2008, 01:04 AM
I have no idea wtf is going on here. Gem agi and hit in sunwell for tps calculator epeen imo.

Pumpkinator
06/09/2008, 03:39 PM
Iambach makes me hard

Oh and yeah necromancers suck the biggest viagra-induced dick in the world but I just use a swarm of something or other that kills 10 mobs at the same time, pretty slick but my 2 FPS is really fucking pissing me off, someone send me a cheap ass gaming computer so I can see my necromancer fail in motion not stutters.

Chris
06/09/2008, 04:01 PM
I took the all caps out. Not sure if it was touched before I did that, but that's all I did.

Xaviera
06/09/2008, 04:21 PM
well anyway

a few weeks ago i started to actually turn my back whenever rage dries up in high-avoidance sunwell gear, to get a full rage bar and resume pushing the buttons. however, blunted, still not going to DW tank. (and yes, assuming you know remotely how to play, with the Sunwell quality gear, you will have sufficient TPS for noone to catch you as long as you have stable rage incoming, and turning your back ensures that)

Also, you will never touch my TPS. Ever. :)

I wont lie though, I haven't read this thread, and any thread that has more than about 2 words worth of "maths" I probably wont read. I hate theorycrafting and generally find it unnecessary :(

Your thread title was misleading, I expected it to be some sarcastic thread about how to play a warrior, like literally.

mko
06/09/2008, 04:27 PM
Blunted would shit bricks on your tps.

DW IS THE FUTURE

Xaviera
06/09/2008, 04:43 PM
blunted doesnt exist, just a terrible Dwarf Female Paladin
and your *shaman or whatever you are
"dog form"

Blackened
06/09/2008, 04:52 PM
What a waste of time....
Isnt there a pedophile on here who is actually a succesful warrior instead of a scrub that rides a guilds coat tails and joined as they were dying?

Maybe he wants to make a thread.
i dont know who the fuck you think you are, i banned you once for being a fucking idiot and i think i'll do it again.

no the game is not THAT complicated, i know that a trained monkey could probably play this game more efficiently and effectively then half of you morons could ever dream. this post simply shows the math behind the easy game.

seriously get a fucking clue

riding coat tails? at least back up your shit before you spew it forth, fucking pleb

Blackened
06/09/2008, 05:02 PM
None of that gibberish you write teaches anyone how to play, asshole. And I've been here a lot longer then you, dont pretend you had a twins kill before your rerolled, cause your full of shit. You had a char here before the twins gate was open. And I'm not sure what country you're from. But here in america, "help out" doesnt mean "crash and die".

Just like in the EJ thread, no one cares that you want to write down long math that helps no one, and has been gone over many times before. When wotlk comes out, and there are new abilities, you can do some cool new math, but this is old shit man, and no one cares.

I'm sure it makes you feel like you have a nice big dick, but your still a nobody that get his kicks from spamming shittons of math that dont help anything in real game play. You even point out at the end of your long ramblings that shit doesnt matter, you just turn to fill up your rage real quick.


this isnt fucking ej faggot shut the fuck up

Blackened
06/09/2008, 05:04 PM
well anyway

a few weeks ago i started to actually turn my back whenever rage dries up in high-avoidance sunwell gear, to get a full rage bar and resume pushing the buttons. however, blunted, still not going to DW tank. (and yes, assuming you know remotely how to play, with the Sunwell quality gear, you will have sufficient TPS for noone to catch you as long as you have stable rage incoming, and turning your back ensures that)

Also, you will never touch my TPS. Ever. :)

I wont lie though, I haven't read this thread, and any thread that has more than about 2 words worth of "maths" I probably wont read. I hate theorycrafting and generally find it unnecessary :(

Your thread title was misleading, I expected it to be some sarcastic thread about how to play a warrior, like literally.
this, i havent theorycrafted once ever, and i still press the button harder then anyone

Chris
06/09/2008, 05:45 PM
this, i havent theorycrafted once ever, and i still press the button harder then ALMOST anyone

QFT.

ALEXTREBEK
06/09/2008, 05:47 PM
I took the all caps out. Not sure if it was touched before I did that, but that's all I did.
No biggie, just change it to something like "Agi > Dodge" or back to its original, goofy title - since it's obviously mislead people.

Blackened
06/09/2008, 05:51 PM
QFT.
bitch get outta here hellboar>economic

brimstone in ssc> cri

YOU KNOW IT!

i didnt play any of the other stuff :(

Chris
06/09/2008, 06:01 PM
bitch get outta here hellboar>economic

brimstone in ssc> cri

YOU KNOW IT!

i didnt play any of the other stuff :(

Didn't happen. I was leveling my warrior when you were in SSC, iirc.

Blackened
06/09/2008, 06:18 PM
rofl @ cami

Seijero
06/09/2008, 09:36 PM
this, i havent theorycrafted once ever, and i still press the button harder then anyone Shouting irl while you slam your buttons = crits

Blackened
06/09/2008, 10:18 PM
shhhhhh

Midnghtrmblr
06/10/2008, 12:09 AM
Midnght and Blackened on Major Domo. Good times!

ALEXTREBEK
06/10/2008, 10:24 AM
by the way, this doesn't really help at all if you stand with your back to morogrim tidewalker out of healer los

Broox
06/10/2008, 12:49 PM
by the way, this doesn't really help at all if you stand with your back to morogrim tidewalker out of healer los

one-rounded imo

also, theorycraft sucks, just push buttons

Klean
06/10/2008, 01:29 PM
Back in the day, we barely knew how the fights worked. We just pushed buttons really fast.

Belgarian
06/10/2008, 04:30 PM
thx for making a boring post semi-entertaining lambach

Licia
06/10/2008, 05:25 PM
Back in the day, we kited stuff to Vael's room.

Fixed it for ya buddy

Maester
06/10/2008, 08:51 PM
Fixed it for ya buddy

lol good times

Megatron
06/14/2008, 10:17 AM
thx for making a boring post semi-entertaining lambach


But now all boring posts will stay boring:(

Goodbye lambach.

Iluminati
06/14/2008, 05:09 PM
banned again?