Paladin Tier 3: Redemption

[Azreal]

Redemption Headpiece
Binds when picked up
Unique
Head
800 Armor
+26 Stamina
+26 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 62.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
Equip: Restores 8 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Spaulders
Binds when picked up
Unique
Shoulders
722 Armor
+22 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 40.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
Equip: Restores 4 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Tunic
Binds when picked up
Unique
Chest
1027 Armor
+25 Stamina
+31 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 59.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
Equip: Restores 10 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Wristguards
Binds when picked up
Unique
Wrists
431 Armor
+21 Stamina
+11 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 31.
Equip: Restores 4 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Handguards
Binds when picked up
Unique
Hands
615 Armor
+23 Stamina
+24 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 33.
Equip: Restores 8 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Girdle
Binds when picked up
Unique
Waist
554 Armor
+19 Stamina
+30 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 40.
Equip: Restores 5 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Legguards
Binds when picked up
Unique
Legs
861 Armor
+30 Stamina
+31 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 42.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
Equip: Restores 8 mana per 5 seconds.

Redemption Boots
Binds when picked up
Unique
Feet
662 Armor
+22 Stamina
+16 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 42.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike with spells by 1%.
Equip: Restores 5 mana per 5 seconds.

Ring of Redemption
Binds when picked up
Unique
Finger
+16 Stamina
+16 Intellect
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 37.
Equip: Restores 6 mana per 5 seconds.

Set Bonus:
[2] Set: Increase the amount healed by your Judgement of Light by 20.
[4] Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Lay on Hands by 12 min.
[6] Set: Your Flash of Light and Holy Light spells have a chance to imbue the target with Holy Power.
[8] Set: Your cleanse spells also heal the target for 100.

[Licia]

Beast healing gear. No reason to have weird pieces for healing anymore!

[Azreal]

Shield of Condemnation
Binds when picked up
Unique
Shield
3425 Armor
+10 Stamina
+10 Intellect
Requires Level 60
Equip: Restores 6 mana per 5 seconds.
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 59.

Hammer of the Twisting Nether
Binds when picked up
Unique
One Hand Mace
36-121 Damage - Speed 1.90
(41.5 Damage Per Second)
+8 Stamina
+11 Intellect
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 238.
Equip: Restores 8 mana per 5 seconds.

Libram of Light
Binds when picked up
Unique
Relic - Libram
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by Flash of Light by up to 83.

Cloak of Suturing
Binds when picked up
Back - Cloth
63 Armor
+12 Intellect
+12 Spirit
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 48.
Equip: Restores 5 mana per 5 seconds.

Might of Menethil
Binds when picked up
Unique
Two-Hand Mace
289-435 Damage - Speed 3.80
(95.3 Damage Per Second)
+20 Strength
+46 Stamina
Requires Level 60
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 2%.

[Ziggi]

[4] Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Lay on Hands by 12 min.

oh sweet jesus am i glad i quit this game.

[Klean]

Whoa that libram is amazing.

[Exedore]

Worst paladin gear EVER. The only redeeming quality of the set is that you have more mana to use exorcism to hit for it's base damage...

And the Libram of Light's effect is the same as +healing. It only adds ~31 Healing to each cast of Flash of Light. Sure beasts Libram of Grace, though.

[Galad]

I think what exedore was trying to say was SKET SKET.

[Moise]

Wow.

This is by FAR the best designed paladin set yet.

Not strength, no spell damage, no bullshit, only plain PvE raiding stats.

I'll be all over it.

[Exedore]

I think you meant to click the http://i73.thottbot.com/en/Interface/Icons/INV_Staff_30.jpg button at character select. They are right next to each other, so it's an easy mistake...



Paladins will never be as good at a task as any of the primary classes regardless of gear. The strength of a paladin is that they can fulfill healing, tanking, damage, and support roles concurrently so that although they're weaker than a priest, warrior, or rogue at any specific role, the fact that they do multiple things decently makes up for it. The problem with sets like Redemption is that it perpetuates the role of a paladin as a gimped healer when they have the potential to do so much more with proper gear, even in raids.

By the way, spell crit is a waste of item budget points for healing. MP5 and +healing is more effective. If you don't believe me, I'll gladly do the math for you.

[Sykoshaman]

They are doing the same thing with the Shaman Tier 3 set. Pure PvE raiding stats. All +healing and mana regen with alot of stam and intel.


PS. WTB Shield of Condemnation and Hammer of the Twisting Nether

[Galad]

Spell crit is undesputably emazing.

casting flash of light 100 times takes 170 seconds (1.5 second cast .2 for lag/lazyness) so every 170 seconds you get 140 mana and 400 healing done.

5 mot over 170 seconds is 170 mana.

For healing purposes they're comparable. When you factor in lag and cleansing and player slowness i would agree saying mot is better.

However, i already have ~23% spell crit (according to a 5 thousand cast test i did before i took a break) so with an additional 5% i'm at ~28. so 7/25 heals i cast are going to crit. Thats 980 mana and 2800 extra healing over 42.5.

Considering the fact that i already never run outta mana i'm inclined to go with the crit.

[Monique]

I think anyone who doesnt get why this is such an amazing set needs to get their head inspected--I don't mean that to be rude, but I still can't get over how good this set is when compared to Judgement's wasted stats (the strength, the spell dmg, the random small amounts of spirit). You really can't compare them, like I believe Viga said, but moreover, this is so PvE it hurts...in a good way. I also feel like for the most part, in group PvP, our job is usually like PvE--we cleanse, heal, and do the same things we'd do in a raid instance unless we're solo grinding (i.e. dpsadin aka tacotx aka the paladin horde has nightmares about), so I guess you could argue it's still viable in PvP too.

And while some people may see that as perpetuating the gimp healing of a Paladin, I think it'd be stupid to give us +spell damage, or strength/agi/spirit, on a PvE set. That's my personal opinion. We may not be the best of healers, but seriously, what would +10 strength instead of the spell crit or mot do for us? It would just further show Blizzard has no clue what Paladins do in raids, or at least that's what I would walk away feeling. Instead, in looking at this set, I feel a little relieved, like maybe Blizzard's kind of sort of getting us, or at least acknowledging we're healers for the most part (and buffers, as seen with our set bonus).

I really like the relic, too. I don't know, you could say I'm still in shock at how pleased with this set I was (I was fearing the worst). I'm still giddy after seeing the spell crit they added and agree with Gala 100% about the crit.

[Licia]

I gonna side with Kirrena for this one, at least a bit. I pressed the paladin button and not the priest button. There may be a few things I would like to see modified in the class but i've learned alot when I joined DnT. You can allow yourself a few stabs in trivial encounters but for top of the line content (aq,naxx and bwl to an extent) it's more useful to toss heals of course. In pvp just empty your mana bar and have a stab, have some fun.

Basicly what i'm saying is, all you people who are saying judgement's +dmg and str is bad, you are wrong. All the others who are saying tier 3 pure healing stats are bad (there are) you are also wrong.

We now have a caster set for the Niggahugs. We have a dps set for the Tacos and the Untamed, and we have a real good healing set coming soon. We are hybrids, sure in PvE we are required to heal most of the time but there are other things you can do in other aspects of the game and I am very pleased to see we got 3 different sets with 3 purposes. You can't jack all the stats a hybrid needs to perform in all is aspects in one set. Whatever you want to do, there is a set for you now and that's what's fabulous about tier3.

[Beran]

The more I think about this set the more I hate it. Judgement is the best set of armor they have ever made for paladin. It fits our role completely as a hybrid tank,healer. I was really hoping that they would have extended the design to t3 to get the bigger ilvl and removed resists and spirit.

I wont argue the fact that it is a great healing set minus 3 of the set bonuses. The stats are perfect for the job. But we are hybrids, not priests. This set should have been a 5 piece out of AQ to round out the really good pvp gear there.

I guess dreaming of a judgement t3 set can stop now. :(

[Delemos]

Hybrid sets that try to do the best of both worlds are not that great and highly overrated. Judgement gave you like a small amount of STR and spell damage which did not improve your PvE role. All the signs of Tier 3 pointed to 110% PvE so this should not be a surprise. Back when I heard they were changing Tier 1 this is exactly what I wanted. Judgement is fine for PvP but it should NOT be your Tier 2. All other hybrids (shamans and druids included) are in the same situation. There is so much more to the class; however your set should be PvE always. I agree there should be PvP alternatives in the zone but your PvE set should be 110% PvE.

Go play a Druid or Shaman, they are in the same role: all they do is heal for the most part. Do we want to do DPS? Oh course. But does Earthshatter or Dreamwalker have any spell damage or str, etc? NO. That is for a damn good reason. You want to do DPS? Then take out the secondary gear you carry with you. That is why I carry 2 bags of gear on each Hybrid I had or have at the present time.

Anybody who says that Paladin healing is not overpowered is full of it. Only reason it wasnt was BECAUSE THIS QUALITY OF ITEMIZATION NEVER EXISTED. Now that it does, it will only show that Paladins are hands down the best single target healers.

[Licia]

LolCaster:
+dmg +spell crit +int
LolDPS:
Str agi crit hit stam
LolPriest:
+heal mot int

Anyways, maybe not all the stats needed are listed above but... that's a shit ton of stats to put on one piece of gear.
I hate the "we are priest" speech but of course the "we are dps/tank w/e" speech isnt much better... hybrids. Stop saying stats we're wasted on whatever set your complaining on. We got all the equipment needed to do what is required and what we want.
The toughest thing in being a hybrid is making the right decision, choosing your priorities.
The only bad thing i see in tier 3 (and its not about the stats) is that people will tend to pigeonhole us into this priest role even more then before. Please do remember that some of our support skills require to stab the mob sometimes :)

Anyways, i'm not saying pallies are fucking special flowers or anything, just saying now pallies have all the tools to use all their abilities.

Of course, having judgment and avenger at Ilvl 70 would be nice.

[Delemos]

Of course, having judgment and avanger at Ilvl 70 would be nice

As a 2nd 5 piece set or some setup like that, I would agree. If you had Redemption as your 9 piece PvE set and they expanded on the Taut Dragonhide/Fallen Crusader idea where they were unofficial mini-sets for us, it would be awesome. I am just saying because of how the item budget works, you can not make a hybrid set that makes you very PvE viable.

[Beran]

Hybrid sets that try to do the best of both worlds are not that great and highly overrated. Judgement gave you like a small amount of STR and spell damage which did not improve your PvE role. All the signs of Tier 3 pointed to 110% PvE so this should not be a surprise. Back when I heard they were changing Tier 1 this is exactly what I wanted. Judgement is fine for PvP but it should NOT be your Tier 2. All other hybrids (shamans and druids included) are in the same situation. There is so much more to the class; however your set should be PvE always. I agree there should be PvP alternatives in the zone but your PvE set should be 110% PvE.

Go play a Druid or Shaman, they are in the same role: all they do is heal for the most part. Do we want to do DPS? Oh course. But does Earthshatter or Dreamwalker have any spell damage or str, etc? NO. That is for a damn good reason. You want to do DPS? Then take out the secondary gear you carry with you. That is why I carry 2 bags of gear on each Hybrid I had or have at the present time.

Anybody who says that Paladin healing is not overpowered is full of it. Only reason it wasnt was BECAUSE THIS QUALITY OF ITEMIZATION NEVER EXISTED. Now that it does, it will only show that Paladins are hands down the best single target healers.

All of this is nothing but your own opinion. Quit stating it as if its fact. Paladins are hybrids for a reason. There is absolutely no reason not to have a t3 hybrid set. Judgement is a hybrid set and its damn good. Now tell me im not viable in pve with it or in pvp and ill call you a liar x 10.
Lumping paladins in with shaman and druids is silly. Druids tank better, heal better, and dps better at an exponential rate. Shamans will always be the anti paladin with more offensive utility then defensive and they will cry about it until the end of time. Redemption should be t2 5 piece go with the pvp heavy gear from AQ so you can mix and match between the two.

[Schmitty]

See Viga, THATS WHY I HATE WRATH!

[Beran]

See Viga, THATS WHY I HATE WRATH!

tcb+wrath = no! :p

[Delemos]

All of this is nothing but your own opinion. Quit stating it as if its fact. Paladins are hybrids for a reason. There is absolutely no reason not to have a t3 hybrid set. Judgement is a hybrid set and its damn good. Now tell me im not viable in pve with it or in pvp and ill call you a liar x 10.
Lumping paladins in with shaman and druids is silly. Druids tank better, heal better, and dps better at an exponential rate. Shamans will always be the anti paladin with more offensive utility then defensive and they will cry about it until the end of time. Redemption should be t2 5 piece go with the pvp heavy gear from AQ so you can mix and match between the two.

There is every reason. If you scale non-hybrid gear and hybrids get a jack of all trades, the way the item budget works fucks that hybrid set. You just said druids are better healers and a huge reason why you draw that conclusion is because you play with tier 2 that is your beloved hybrid set and I play with a full blown PvE set. Druid itemization was right since day 1. Genesis is basically the druid counterpart and there is a night/day difference between the two though SR is lower ilvl. Paladin has been fucked since day 1. People have gone out of their way to get non plate itemization to prove that with the right itemization, paladins are INCREDIBLE healers. They are and yet I see you complaining about the shortcomings of the class in paladin chat. This isnt my opinion but the general testing and discussion of many paladins/other hybrids. You can call the shaman the anti paladin but that is PvP. Both classes are now excellent healers especially now with the Shaman talent revamp.

I always said on Aga I wanted the set Redemption is for PvE because it makes the paladin the healer they should be. Should options like Judgement exist? Of course which is why I said they should be an additional option, but not your primary set.

[dynewolf]

Pallys, Shamans, Druids are hybrid classes. that is fact. Unfortunately the mechanics of doing high-end instances do not capitalize on that multi-honed potential.

Strategies implemented for most encounters are static, meaning set roles for certain classes that are best suited for the job.

There are exceptions sure, but when all is said and done, for end-game PVE paladins are healers.

[Blackened]

I think you meant to click the http://i73.thottbot.com/en/Interface/Icons/INV_Staff_30.jpg button at character select. They are right next to each other, so it's an easy mistake...



Paladins will never be as good at a task as any of the primary classes regardless of gear. The strength of a paladin is that they can fulfill healing, tanking, damage, and support roles concurrently so that although they're weaker than a priest, warrior, or rogue at any specific role, the fact that they do multiple things decently makes up for it. The problem with sets like Redemption is that it perpetuates the role of a paladin as a gimped healer when they have the potential to do so much more with proper gear, even in raids.

By the way, spell crit is a waste of item budget points for healing. MP5 and +healing is more effective. If you don't believe me, I'll gladly do the math for you.


This set is absolutely amazing, and if, but only for a second, you think that strength should also be on this set then you're more of an idiot then I thought. When does a paladin tank in an end-game pve raid? WHEN? When does a paladin come to an end-game pve raid to do DAMAGE? WHEN? If i wanted some one to do damage, I would bring another Rogue/Mage/Warlock/Shitty. Hell, I'd even bring in another Hunter, autoshot dps > paladin dps in a raid situation. A paladin only has 2 responsibilities in a raid situation, Heal and Bless. If you're under the delusion that Paladins "tank" and "do damage" then you're an idiot. A priest is capable of doing more damage then a Paladin.

[Klean]

A paladin only has 2 responsibilities in a raid situation, Heal and Bless.

You forgot BOP and DI!

[antisnow]

spongey needs to be quiet imo.

[Blackened]

You forgot BOP and DI!

that's a given!

[Galad]

if you want to poke things use avengers if you want to keep squishy fury gm warrior alive so he can poke people then get redemption.

[Beran]

I usually avoid these class conversations because its pointless jabs back and forth sprinkled with some idiot, retard, asshat from our friend black ;) which does nothing for anyone. I am however going to stick this one out because people are so blind and it’s getting worse.


There is every reason. If you scale non-hybrid gear and hybrids get a jack of all trades, the way the item budget works fucks that hybrid set.


http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin.html

Paladins are a hybrid class. I rolled a paladin and knew from the start that I am a hybrid class. It will and should reflect this is point distribution on stats for the class sets. Paladins aren’t fucked because of this it’s this way because of the definition of a paladin. I know stat points wont be omg top of the line of this or that. We are a jack-of-all-trades by definition and master of none that is why the judgement set looks the way it does.

You people keep talking about how this is a pve or pvp set, well this is the CLASS set. It should reflect the definition blizzard gave to paladins. Paladins are unique in the fact that they can choose cloth, leather, chain, or plate. What reason would you have to wear a hybrid set if all you do is heal? The set bonuses? LOL! Mix and match between all the stuff that’s out there if you want a perfect ideal pve healing set.


You just said druids are better healers and a huge reason why you draw that conclusion is because you play with tier 2 that is your beloved hybrid set and I play with a full blown PvE set. Druid itemization was right since day 1. Genesis is basically the druid counterpart and there is a night/day difference between the two though SR is lower ilvl.

A druid in full heal gear is still better then a paladin in full heal gear, period. It isn’t some conclusion I draw it’s a simple fact. I also need to point out that it goes a little beyond just itemization Agamos. Druids have better talents and class skills for healing then a paladin does. No ilvl crap applies here.

People have gone out of their way to get non plate itemization to prove that with the right itemization, paladins are INCREDIBLE healers. They are and yet I see you complaining about the shortcomings of the class in paladin chat.

Tsk, tsk Agamos. I have never once said paladins are bad healers. Shortcomings are shortcomings. Every class has them and every class talks about them. Bringing private paladin channel chat here is retarded. Need I remind you - you bitched so much about the class you quit playing it all together? Id also like you to tell me in game what I have bitched about outside of itemization that anyone else hasn’t bitched about before.

This isnt my opinion but the general testing and discussion of many paladins/other hybrids. You can call the shaman the anti paladin but that is PvP. Both classes are now excellent healers especially now with the Shaman talent revamp.

General testing and discussion are still opinions Agamos. You could argue for any side and there are plenty of discussions on the wow boards if you would like to see them. Bringing that into this discussion is pointless.

I always said on Aga I wanted the set Redemption is for PvE because it makes the paladin the healer they should be. Should options like Judgement exist? Of course which is why I said they should be an additional option, but not your primary set.

I agree that redemption is a damn good heal set. You would have to be retarded not to see that fact. In addition, it does make a paladin a damn fine healer. Yet again, this isn’t a class-defining hybrid set though Agamos. It’s a pve heal set not a paladin ~class~ set. That is why it should be a 5-piece AQ set not a friggin primary class set.

I want Judgement in t3 as it should be.

[Blackened]

YES VIGA YOU ARE A HYBRID CLASS. BUT..... GASP, YOURE PVE RAIDING SET IS ( HOLY SHITTTTTTTTTTTT) STRAIGHT PVE ORIENTED.




I'm positive there will be alternate items in Naxxramas that cater more to what you want to do with your paladin. I think you're just now getting a taste of what I felt a year ago with the warrior changes.


What I was getting at earlier Viga is that you are not a hybrid class in endgame pve. You heal/bless, nothing more/less, if paladins are doing anything more it means we probably wiped or something went terribly wrong.

[Ziggi]

you wanna bitch about something, bitch about this...

8 Piece Bonus :
Whenever your pet dies (required level 60, 2 minute cooldown) you gain a fear immunity for 15 seconds and a +20% range haste.

sacraficial pets ftw.... fuck am i glad i quit

[Beran]

YES VIGA YOU ARE A HYBRID CLASS. BUT..... GASP, YOURE PVE RAIDING SET IS ( HOLY SHITTTTTTTTTTTT) STRAIGHT PVE ORIENTED.




I'm positive there will be alternate items in Naxxramas that cater more to what you want to do with your paladin. I think you're just now getting a taste of what I felt a year ago with the warrior changes.


What I was getting at earlier Viga is that you are not a hybrid class in endgame pve. You heal/bless, nothing more/less, if paladins are doing anything more it means we probably wiped or something went terribly wrong.

You know me black. I know what needs to be done and I do it fairly well. If I felt judgement didnt cut the mustard for raids I would have swapped out or farmed something else to get the job done. Not to mention I would have taken your ashkandi if I didnt know what needs to be done. :p

It just burns my ass with the comparisons of pve and pvp sets man. I know what each are and what each set needs to the extreme ends if I want to go there. All i'm saying is the CLASS set should be what we are defined to be is all. I would sit here and drool over the thought of judgement in t3 and it just makes me sad what they did.

Yes I know redemption is the ideal pve set, its just not a hybrid set. I am already spinning the wheels and trying to figure out how nasty redemption will be fully enchanted and stacked with the hammer and shield... mmmmm...

[Beran]

you wanna bitch about something, bitch about this...



sacraficial pets ftw.... fuck am i glad i quit


hehe you should come back and roll paladin man. Then you get to have this on your t3 set!


Increases the amount healed by your judgement of light by 20!

kek

[Delemos]

A paladin in a full blown PvE healing gear is just as good as a druid. Simple FACT. It is just a different healing ROLE. Druid, priests, and paladins excel at different types of healing. Comparing any of the two is POINTLESS. Paladins are by far the best single target healers in the game; they just didnt have the itemization to support that claim. Now they do, welcome to being amazing. Judgement does shit to get you there. Redemption does.

How is it opinion when over 20 paladins and 30 druids worth of information is compared and analyzed. That is testing and drawing conclusions and is a lot better than what I or you personally think. Talk to Demon, the one guy who knows the class very well. I talk to him all the time and we discuss the class. I am basing a lot of what I say on what I hear from everybody else as that is how you become better, by looking outward at others. That is how I was able to make the transition to all 3 healing classes and still play them. I get schooled by members of all 3 classes from many servers each day.

Since you said Paladins are hybrids let me remind you:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/index.html

Druid: Type: Hybrid, Primary Healer
Paladin: Type: Hybrid, Secondary Healer
Shaman: Type: Hybrid, Secondary Healer

If you notice ALL THREE SHARE THE SAME title: HYBRID. Your PvE set should be PvE oriented. In end game content, encounters have to be designed with certain roles in place. This is why there is alternatives. I agree they should exist but they CAN NOT be your primary set as raid design currently requires you to utilize the healing abilities of your class.

Do I like the fact that the Druid set has ZERO spell damange, ZERO strength, or ZERO agility, etc? Of course I do not. But I accepted the fact a long time ago that raid design or the item budget does not allows you to enjoy one set that utiltizes your hybrid abilities. It is just a fact atm and why there should be alternatives as it is the best compromise to how things are designed atm.

[Ziggi]

haven't you guys figured it out by now? Blizzard wants ou to carry around 5 18 slot bags worth of gear to be a hybrid. Pffff having one armor set that's good for everything? yeah right...


first FireR, then NR, now FrostR, not to mention healing set, dmg set, and i feel a druids pain truly... throw in Cat feral gear and Bear feral gear not to mention caster if they are a tards and go oomkin.

[Licia]

haven't you guys figured it out by now? Blizzard wants ou to carry around 5 18 slot bags worth of gear to be a hybrid. Pffff having one armor set that's good for everything? yeah right...


You nailed it right there. Even warriors have the same problem as hybrids when it comes to dps/tanking. We have 3 sets to choose from that allow us to have maximal stats for the role we chose to take at any given time. Awesome.
Sadly, tier3 judgement wouldnt have enough item budget to allow us to excel at any role unlike 3 armor sets do... unless they gave weird on equip modifiers.

I love having my 3 armor sets, its the most freedom I'll get through itemization so far. I feared though that tier3 would pigeonhole us even further and it's doing it right now.

I don't think the flaw comes from itemization anymore but from encounter designs. CThun is such a wonderful encounter at so many levels and for so many different play types. Just ask tcb.

[Beran]

You have proven my point Agamos. Thank you. You really need ot make up your mind about which class is the better healer too because you are beyond confused and you keep making up random stuff. Paladin is a hybrid therefore the class set should have hybrid stats. Quit confusing pve and pvp sets with class sets.

Also, I dont give 2 shits what you and your 30 friends think. I can come up with 30 other people who disagree with you. Still no point in bringing that up besides to make some far fetched point that is *still* an opinion. I dont care how you coat an opinion is an opinion.

You linked and typed exactly what ive been saying all along, thanks again.

[Beran]

Oh btw, thanks for saying in a round about way I dont know how to play my class Agamos. I appreciate it.

[dave]

Agamos is angry these days, I think. It's ok Joe.

Druids are better healers not only because of their gear, but because their skills are flat out better.

Shamans are now better for sure, with inspiration, 18% more healing, three different direct heals, and some good options.

Buffing is boring as shit. Let's blow all totems and buffs and blessings. Yawn.

[Exedore]

Blackened, if you're going to troll and be ignorant, at least be good at trolling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agamos, you need to look past the guise that every class does one and only one thing in a group. You have repeatedly refused differing viewpoints, supporting solely your own and reinforcing your viewpoints with like-minded individuals. Just because you think paladins are healers and only healers doesn't meant that that is the most effective they can be.

Paladins are not the best single target healers, even with nothing but healing gear. A priest, even with more generalized gear (some spell dmg/healing instead of pure healing) is just as good, if not better. They're also better group healers. A year ago, this was different, but things have changed. Druids, Priests, and Paladins have all had an overhaul, gear has changed significantly, and the types of raid encounters have broadened.

The item budget or itemization may not work in favor of druids, but it doesn't hinder paladins much at all. In fact, a hybrid paladin is almost as good at any single role as a paladin that specializes solely for that role, yet performs the other roles far better than the specialist. The Judgement set is a prime example of how that was done, and Avenger put a slight combat bias on it. Druid feral and caster forms overlap far less and they suffer a delay in switching roles, whereas paladins don't. Paladins also can swap a good 2h weapon to deal extra damage even on healer biased (not pure healer) gear, whereas druids generally don't have that luxury.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Galadedrid, you do realize that from your assumption, you need over 10000 mana to cast 100 Flash of Lights in under 3 minutes, after assuming that managed to regain 4000 of it during combat. But barring that loophole, your estimates value 1% spell crit at 4.11 MP5 and +11.8 healing. 1% spell crit is 2600 in the budget, 1 MP5 is 550, and +1 healing is 100, so the result is 2600 vs. 2800 (remember that two stats combined are worth more than one). Using a more realistic delay of .5 seconds to also factor in finding the next target, heals that you reset, etc, you drop down to 3.5 MP5 (+healing is the same, but healing over time drops), which is only 2500 in the item budget. If you continue to factor in realistic scenarios, the combination of MP5 and +healing becomes increasingly more powerful in comparison to spell crit. I could make an entire post simply on that topic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Licia and Viga, as much as I haven't gotten along with you in the past, I respect your willingness to challenge conformity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you don't think a paladin can't play as a hybrid in raids, you're sorely mistaken. I have tanked mobs in BWL and AQ for short periods of time when thinks went wrong, and I can keep up at least 150 DPS and a judgement with no net loss in mana and still be ready to heal if needed. Sure, a paladin will be better off healing on fights like Broodlord Lashlayer and the Twin Emperors, but do you really need 15 full-time healers for the entirety of a trash clear or bosses like Fankriss? The advantage of a paladin played as a true hybrid is that you get the extra healing when you need it, but you also have some extra damage and utility when you don't.

The Redemption set is being made in response to a vocal minority of narrow-minded and self-centered opinions like many presented here. It's very possible to make a hybrid set and put a healing bias on it with the item budget that redemption has. (There's a spreadsheet linked on the Wow paladin forums with this goal in mind, but as of this posting, the WoW forums are down.)

[Blackened]

You're the one being ignorant.

[Schmitty]

Quit talking you are a horrible player.

[Dolemite]

and you wear your sisters underpants because it makes you feel pretty.

[Moise]

This set is absolutely amazing, and if, but only for a second, you think that strength should also be on this set then you're more of an idiot then I thought. When does a paladin tank in an end-game pve raid? WHEN? When does a paladin come to an end-game pve raid to do DAMAGE? WHEN? If i wanted some one to do damage, I would bring another Rogue/Mage/Warlock/Shitty. Hell, I'd even bring in another Hunter, autoshot dps > paladin dps in a raid situation. A paladin only has 2 responsibilities in a raid situation, Heal and Bless. If you're under the delusion that Paladins "tank" and "do damage" then you're an idiot. A priest is capable of doing more damage then a Paladin.


You're talking to someone who wore a 2hander during bwl progress on his paladin.


Wake up people, that hybrid class is *complete* bullshit as far as raiding goes. Sure, we can tank 5 mans decently, we can throw "some" damage when fights aren't too healing intensive, but paladins have always been nothing but healers in 40 man raid pve and always will be healers, blizzard has made that pretty clear so far.

As much as I would like to believe that we would some day be allowed by game design to do more than that, let's be honest here, it’s not happening.

I'd like to stress out the point that I'm talking about a RAID PVE SETTING, and raid pve only. Paladins CAN dish out good burst damage in pvp, can tank in 5 mans, etc, but as far as raiding goes, its all about healing.

I disagree with viga, this is not a class set, this is a pve raiding set, they're items that drop in a raid pve instance, and their objective is to help you progress trough raid pve encounters. And as far as paladins go, this is done trough healing, not tanking, not dpsing, not hybriding or whatnots, it’s done by being a better healer. We have shortcomings, but we also have what I consider to be an incredible edge compared to priests and druids, and taking advantage of that edge is what its all about, whether its trough or survivability, our low aggro heals, or our class abilities like divine favor, LoH, etc. Healing isn't always about healing power... Yes, paladins have less effective heals, but take a look at the effective healing charts, and I can guarantee you that you'll find at least 3 paladins in the top 10 healers. We're healers in raid pve, there's no way around that. Don't complain about the fact that the set doesn't reflect the hybrid aspect of the paladin, start by complaining about the fact that paladins do *not* and never have played a hybrid role in raid pve, this is how the game is designed.

It seems clear to me that the philosophy behind itemization is to create specific sets for specific purposes. Its far more effective to design gear this way, if properly implemented. Rather than wear judgement and be a decent healer, decent at dishing out burst damage, decent at whatever else, I'd much rather have a set like tier 3 to be an *amazing* healer (and I strongly believe that tier 3 stats can help paladins reach that level), and also be amazing in pvp with gear designed towards that aspect of the game (look at demon). That's the way to go, and I for one am happy to see how tier 3 was designed.

So yeah, I've gotten over the whole hybrid class description. It seems to me that the definition of an hybrid class according to paladins isn't that they can play multiple roles in every circumstance, it is that the paladin can play *certain* roles in *certain specific* circumstances, its all very limited, and its always been that way. And like I pointed out before, the only way in which paladin can be useful in raid pve is by healing, and nothing else. Its always been this way, and by looking at the upcoming content, I think its safe to assume that it will always be that way. So I'd rather get a good pve set from the raid pve encounters I help defeat, and hopefuly I'll be more useful to the raid with that gear.

[Beran]

You guys arent understanding me at all. Moise I said the redemption set is a pve set. What I believe it should be is judgement t3. I dont want to loldps in a raid. I never have, why on earth would I want to start now? I know the class role of a paladin in a raid/party, ive been doing since closed beta and i've been doing it longer then some of the people posting here.

[Schmitty]

Viga for MT.

[Moise]

You guys arent understanding me at all. Moise I said the redemption set is a pve set. What I believe it should be is judgement t3. I dont want to loldps in a raid. I never have, why on earth would I want to start now? I know the class role of a paladin in a raid/party, ive been doing since closed beta and i've been doing it longer then some of the people posting here.


I believe I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and I've tried to make my opinion on the subject as clear as I could.

You believe that the set that drops in every 40 man is a class set, and that since the paladin is by definition an hybrid class, the sets should then be suited to reflect the hybrid role of a paladin, aka what judgement was. Strength, spell damage and healing, stam, int, in short, pretty much a "best of both sides" set that can be used in multiple circumstances in multiple ways.

My opinion on that subject is that sets that drop in 40 mans are not *class sets*, they're 40 man raiding class sets, designed for that aspect of the game. There are multiple sets in the game that can be aquired in different ways and that serve different purposes (pvp set for pvp, at least in theory, etc). As you said yourself, judgement set may not have been the *ideal* healing set. I believe that it should have been. The purpose of raiding is do defeat raid encounters. The loot from these encounters should not be jack-of-all-trades hybrid sets, they should be set designed specifically to help you defeat raid encounters. I believe that every class set from 40 mans should be designed to be the best possible items to help a class fulfill its role in pve.

I'm not being narrow-minded, like Kirrena said earlier. I'm being realistic. Wake up kirrena, you're not fighting the right fight. If World of Warcraft 40 mans were designed to take full advantage of the hybrid aspect of the paladin, I would be 100% behind you. If you were to make a thread arguing that the DESIGNERS are narrow-minded when designing encounters, and that bosses and instances should allow the paladin to take full advantage of everything he can do, I would support you.

But as it stands right now, I don't think we're playing the same game. Face it: the only use paladins have in raids, besides using their class abilties (bops, loh, buffs, hoj, etc) is healing.

That's it: healing. The instances are NOT designed with paladins being hybrids in mind. They're designed with paladins as healers in mind. Until that changes, I'm at least happy to see that the devs have designed items that reflect the way they design their game.

[Blackened]

I believe I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and I've tried to make my opinion on the subject as clear as I could.

You believe that the set that drops in every 40 man is a class set, and that since the paladin is by definition an hybrid class, the sets should then be suited to reflect the hybrid role of a paladin, aka what judgement was. Strength, spell damage and healing, stam, int, in short, pretty much a "best of both sides" set that can be used in multiple circumstances in multiple ways.

My opinion on that subject is that sets that drop in 40 mans are not *class sets*, they're 40 man raiding class sets, designed for that aspect of the game. There are multiple sets in the game that can be aquired in different ways and that serve different purposes (pvp set for pvp, at least in theory, etc). As you said yourself, judgement set may not have been the *ideal* healing set. I believe that it should have been. The purpose of raiding is do defeat raid encounters. The loot from these encounters should not be jack-of-all-trades hybrid sets, they should be set designed specifically to help you defeat raid encounters. I believe that every class set from 40 mans should be designed to be the best possible items to help a class fulfill its role in pve.

I'm not being narrow-minded, like Kirrena said earlier. I'm being realistic. Wake up kirrena, you're not fighting the right fight. If World of Warcraft 40 mans were designed to take full advantage of the hybrid aspect of the paladin, I would be 100% behind you. If you were to make a thread arguing that the DESIGNERS are narrow-minded when designing encounters, and that bosses and instances should allow the paladin to take full advantage of everything he can do, I would support you.

But as it stands right now, I don't think we're playing the same game. Face it: the only use paladins have in raids, besides using their class abilties (bops, loh, buffs, hoj, etc) is healing.

That's it: healing. The instances are NOT designed with paladins being hybrids in mind. They're designed with paladins as healers in mind. Until that changes, I'm at least happy to see that the devs have designed items that reflect the way they design their game.


agree 100%

[Draacon]

Why did azreal link the might of menethil in here?

[Orrec]

Wow...those stats are amazing. Honestly, I would switch to all Holy if it meant getting this set, even though I love being ret and dealing damage. Still, I cannot deny that paladins are mde to heal, and heal alone, especially in raid instances. For this reason, I love the Redemption set. In my opinion, it is the best set out there for paladins. And if you don't like it and want to complain about how Judgment is better, then fine. The fact is, there is more than one set out here for paladins, as there is for every class. If you want to PvP, use Judgment/Avengers, but if you want to heal, and heal extremely well, then use Redemption. It truly covers the role of paladins extremely well.

And, the Might of Menethil hammer is awesome. Blizzard just keeps outdoing themselves. :)

[Schmitty]

That mace is for warriors until a sword or axe of similar quality is discovered.

[Orrec]

That mace is for warriors until a sword or axe of similar quality is discovered.


Understood, but I still would kill to get one. 95.3 dps? Any 2h mace wielder would want that thing, be you a paladin or warrior.

But also, the 1h mace (name escapes me...) is great too. The increase to healing along with the Shield of Condemnation would be great for any healadin. Especially with the Redemption armor.

[Hellboar]

druid mace

[Licia]

Thanks for finding the words Moise :P
I may not be the best paly (TT Russ) out there but I for one would love to see encounter designs where hybrids would have a bit more options... like a twin emp kind of fight where you got some undead mobs that strongly react to holy and nature damage and are near immune to physical... goes enraged when hit by holy dmg ( mail/plate difference ) etc... If I think there was anything good with AQ is that Blizz showed they could have more imagination in encounter design now. Let's see what they do from there.

[Azreal]

C'Thun and Viscidus are well designed encounters for hybrids classes.

C'Thun is the only fight in the game in which I felt that I could do more for the raid if I was specced Retribution. All the healing that is required is burst, since Giant Claw Tenticles don't remain up very long, you can't stay inside the stomach for extended periods of time, and in Stage One the Green Eye Beam only hits infrequently for large amounts. You don't need the best healing talents of gear to keep people up, and Blessing of Freedom having a large impact on saving people from Mind Flay reinforces this. Add that to the fact that this fight is very DPS centric, and you can contribute a lot as a Retribution Paladin, arguably more than one of any other talent spec. Viscidus also requires you do some burst damage, and melee when he freezes. Having an intense round of healing, followed by a brief pause in which you are trying to put out a lot of burst damage makes for a very interesting and well designed fight. If one person's mistake didn't cost you an otherwise perfect attempt, it would be far and away my favorite fight.

If these are any indication of the encounters in Naxxramus, then I find the Tier 3 Sets lacking. Sure, they are the ideal healing set by any measure, and I'd be hard pressed to design one better. However, they don't promote a hybrid playing style which Blizzard has been pushing for in the later encounters. I hear it on vent everytime we do C'Thun: "This is the best fight in the game." The reason people think so is because it promotes a different style of playing that players are not familiar with, and gves individual the freedom to play their class their own way. I will withold further comment until I see more of the loot table from the other bosses in Naxxramus, as there may very well be a lot of non set hybrid gear.

[Moise]

You're right about C'Thun, it is indeed really well designed as far as integrating hybrid classes in the fight in more than one way.

But I have serious doubts about seeing more and more of these kinds of encounters in the future... Hopefully you're right though, we'll see ^_^

[Nidhogg]

This thread needs a Nidhugg.

Calm down guys, gear is gear, what makes or breaks most of these encounters are the players behind each character. Gear just makes us feel special. We could do BWL in blues I bet. Redemption is our Tier3 because back when Judgement got its overhaul there was a contingent of Paladins that love healing. They forgot they weren't priests.. but they love healing. healing healing healing healing healing and they thought Judgement the (then top tier) armor should reflect the fact that we heal heal heal in raids. This is Blizzard's nod to that group of Paladins. Will I pick it up? Yes.. I will wear it over Judgement in PvE raids because quite frankly swinging the hammer is good for judgement refreshes... but by and large my damage means nothing. I tank some things here and there.. Redemption can let me fulfil that role just fine... and I will heal more efficiently (notice I said efficiently.. not better. No armor will make you heal better than you can currently.)

Im sleepy =[
<3 Viga

[Blackened]

You're right about C'Thun, it is indeed really well designed as far as integrating hybrid classes in the fight in more than one way.

But I have serious doubts about seeing more and more of these kinds of encounters in the future... Hopefully you're right though, we'll see ^_^


Then you can *GASP* put on your non-set/avengers

[Exedore]

Here (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=1042080) is the spreadsheet I was talking about.

Example Helm
+ 18 Strength
+ 28 Stamina
+ 22 Intellect
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 35.
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by spells and effects by up to 25.
Equip: Restores 6 mana every 5 seconds.

Loses 4 int, 2 MP5, and 1 spell crit compared to Redemption and gains 25 spell dmg, 2 sta, and 18 str. It's not solely a healer set, but still far better than any existing paladin set for healing and performs well in other areas.

[Moise]

Then you can *GASP* put on your non-set/avengers


You mean

[Bonereaver's Edge]

?

[Blackened]

You mean

[Bonereaver's Edge]

?


YEA MAN

[Beran]

I believe I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and I've tried to make my opinion on the subject as clear as I could.

You believe that the set that drops in every 40 man is a class set, and that since the paladin is by definition an hybrid class, the sets should then be suited to reflect the hybrid role of a paladin, aka what judgement was. Strength, spell damage and healing, stam, int, in short, pretty much a "best of both sides" set that can be used in multiple circumstances in multiple ways.

My opinion on that subject is that sets that drop in 40 mans are not *class sets*, they're 40 man raiding class sets, designed for that aspect of the game. There are multiple sets in the game that can be aquired in different ways and that serve different purposes (pvp set for pvp, at least in theory, etc). As you said yourself, judgement set may not have been the *ideal* healing set. I believe that it should have been. The purpose of raiding is do defeat raid encounters. The loot from these encounters should not be jack-of-all-trades hybrid sets, they should be set designed specifically to help you defeat raid encounters. I believe that every class set from 40 mans should be designed to be the best possible items to help a class fulfill its role in pve.

I'm not being narrow-minded, like Kirrena said earlier. I'm being realistic. Wake up kirrena, you're not fighting the right fight. If World of Warcraft 40 mans were designed to take full advantage of the hybrid aspect of the paladin, I would be 100% behind you. If you were to make a thread arguing that the DESIGNERS are narrow-minded when designing encounters, and that bosses and instances should allow the paladin to take full advantage of everything he can do, I would support you.

But as it stands right now, I don't think we're playing the same game. Face it: the only use paladins have in raids, besides using their class abilties (bops, loh, buffs, hoj, etc) is healing.

That's it: healing. The instances are NOT designed with paladins being hybrids in mind. They're designed with paladins as healers in mind. Until that changes, I'm at least happy to see that the devs have designed items that reflect the way they design their game.

I cant argue against anything you said here Moise. What Blizzard says and does are two completely different things. I highly doubt there will ever be a time when the "I wanna whack mobs in raids and use my skills" paladin group gets what they want because the way the game is designed doesnt lend itself to it. There is horde and anything that makes the paladin stand out will result in 30+ threads in every forum about how imba a paladin is in pve. Heaven forbid they make the pve class stand out in pve.

There are other things to do besides raids though, and I like to play on my paladin for pvp even though alot of people dont like it. Its why I have an attachment to judgement. It may not have uber stats of doom for either side (healer/dps), it has enough to make me feel like I can get the job done wether its cracking skulls or healing spam. Im just really dissapointed that they did a complete reverse from judgement with T3.

[Blackened]

viga needs 5pc avengers go!

[Orrec]

http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=3590561&article_id=707112&channel_id=261&page_title=WoW+Screenies+Including+Tier+3&adtag=network%3Dign%26size%3D468x60%26channel%3Dve 3d%26site%3Dve3d_hub%26channel%3Dnews%26type%3Dpar tner

Found a screenie. Looks pretty sexy. I'd imagine that the mace and shield the dwarf has is the new 1H mace (Hammer of the Twisting Nether or wathever it is) and the shield is Shield of Condemnation.

Pretty cool looking imo. There are other screenshots of the other sets, except hunter, for some reason.

Sorry hunters :(

[Summons]

on the set, including ring (the ring is well rounded but probly replaceable)

58 mana every 5 seconds, 392 +healing 5% spell crit

unfortunatly the art has taken a direction that i personally do not enjoy. Judgement set the standard very high and i just dont like teir3 :E

otherwise awsome stats, should be sitting over 100 mana/5seconds and at least 1200 +healing with all the trimmings and enchants. im hoping for chest/shield/boot enchants to go with it, enchants severly lacking over the last year.

[Moise]

Moise will look AMAZING in tier 3, and I will proudly keep helm graphic on 24/7.

Anyways, I think you're being a bit conservative with those values, once I get the shield / mace / neck / cloak from AQ40 I'll already be sitting at 1k healing and ~95 mot, there could very well be a new healing trinket to replace rejuv gem or sotc in naxx, plus new healing jewlerly to kick those numbers up even higher.

[Blackened]

http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=3590561&article_id=707112&channel_id=261&page_title=WoW+Screenies+Including+Tier+3&adtag=network%3Dign%26size%3D468x60%26channel%3Dve 3d%26site%3Dve3d_hub%26channel%3Dnews%26type%3Dpar tner

Found a screenie. Looks pretty sexy. I'd imagine that the mace and shield the dwarf has is the new 1H mace (Hammer of the Twisting Nether or wathever it is) and the shield is Shield of Condemnation.

Pretty cool looking imo. There are other screenshots of the other sets, except hunter, for some reason.

Sorry hunters :(


hunters got owned at e3.

good deal imo

[Blackened]

Moise will look AMAZING in tier 3, and I will proudly keep helm graphic on 24/7.

Anyways, I think you're being a bit conservative with those values, once I get the shield / mace / neck / cloak from AQ40 I'll already be sitting at 1k healing and ~95 mot, there could very well be a new healing trinket to replace rejuv gem or sotc in naxx, plus new healing jewlerly to kick those numbers up even higher.

word on the street is we wont be seeing too many more completely passive trinkets, for example rejuv gem. so expect more clickable trinkets in naxx ala zhc/earthstrike.

[Galad]

Transformers, robots in disguise.

[Crossbones]

A logical approach to this kind of loot problem would be to not limit token-based loot to sets only. Rather than DPS plateX dropping, Jim the Spider's Big Toe drops and you can turn it in at your nearest Argent Dawn Retailer for a piece of str/damage plate, mail dmg/heal gear, etc. It allows the healer classes to pick up PvP loot and reduces MORE FUCKING FERAL LOOT Syndrome.

Of course, there's also the problem of trying to design a worthwhile seconday set for the four pure DPS classes who have only one possible role.

Also, the 'priest button' nonsense is pretty funny considering the way priests are just as hybrid as the rest when it comes to PvP.

[Sykoshaman]

you wanna bitch about something, bitch about this...



sacraficial pets ftw.... fuck am i glad i quit


Ziggi wtf are you talking about. That has to be the best 8/8 bonus out of any of the teir 3 sets. Open your damn eyes old man.

On a serious note. Why doesn't Blizz implement multiple sets per class for the future 40man raid instances. Say for example the shaman. One set for healing (pve), one set for nuking (pvp/pve)*, and one set for melee (pvp). Maybe its too much to ask for but it would be nice.

* I say both pvp and pve because even though it might be rare there are times when shamans nuke in end game intances. Especially if we are short on ranged dps and we have an over abundance of healage. Also Cthun is elemantal shaman friendly ^_^

[Licia]

Cthun is retnoob friendly, bear friendly, schmitty friendly etc
wtb more cthun

[Galad]

The complete ownage of this set for healing gives me mental security and freedom to pick up ret gear in the existing instances because i know healer friendly stuff is comming out soon.

[Galad]

I wonder if + healing applies to the 8 piece. I'll probably be rocking close to 1k healing when i finish with gear (i havn't actually done the math) but that factored in, even at the insta cast 40% still makes that a solid 500 life. Alot better then 100.

[Beran]

The complete ownage of this set for healing gives me mental security and freedom to pick up ret gear in the existing instances because i know healer friendly stuff is comming out soon.


hmm... mental security? Somehow I doubt that ;)

[Licia]

Hey viga, wtb rejuv gem and lokamir yes? :)

[Orrec]

http://ctprofiles.net/1375806

In my opinion the best healadin armour for patch 1.11. Note, CTProfiles didn't have Ring of Unanswered Prayers (which does like +70 healing or whatever) so I used something else from 1.11.

Now go out there and get that good stuff guys. At least you're lucky enough to get it >.<

And the page I got all this information from is http://wowwalkthroughs.free.fr/

[Galad]

Band of Innevitable blows for healing and the Restrained Essence of Sapphiron isn't the best burst healing nor is it the best static (look to rejuv gem and Green dragon trinket).

[romi]

>> The instances are NOT designed with paladins being hybrids in mind.

Hi guys,

just wanted to hop in this discution since i get it alot with most of the pallys and my guildmates.

Blizzard CAN'T design specific encounters for hybrid pallys only because of the unique class .. what do you do horde side? Pallys and Shamans are so different in raid environnements that it would be very hard to pull it off.

About tier3 .. yes best healing gear in the game but i wont get it. Well i'll probably be the last to get it. My healing gear does the job and it will probably do some time in Naxx ... i also agree that bottom line we are amazing healers BUT i like the fact that in AQ40 i get to use the 2h and dish out some damage .. Ct'hun fight, Frank, trash are really fun for melee pallys.

I still haven't seen all the wings of Naxx but what i did see disapointed me a little bit .. i tought with mostly undeads we would get a bigger role but i guess that was wishfull thinking. Blizz doesn't want us to get a different role in raiding.

Romi - Skywall also a Montreal frenchie

[MoonStar]

Restrained Essence of Sapphiron isn't the best burst healing nor is it the best static (look to rejuv gem and Green dragon trinket).

GTFO MY TRINKET.

[Klean]

Pallies are amazing healers, they have BOP, that's all I care about.

[Oribitus]

Greetings from Reason:

After reading a few pages in this ever-lasting competition between gamers and the game designers I thought i'd throw my 2 cents out onto the playing feild..

1st We always have to keep in mind that the objective of the *game* theoretically and especially for the paladin class is to have fun and spec-out/gear-out in any viable way you can; i.e (Retnoobs, wreckbombers and shockadins) However as we all know im just talking out my ass when it comes to end game guilds and the raiding content we all encounter.

What I really want feedback and opinion on is this. Do you think that the way a Paladin player spec(s) his/her character impacts a raid greatly or minimaly? Im 13/7/31 and for all instances accept for Naxx im in my dps gear. I use my healing gear for new encounters or when im asked to stepp up and fill a preist/druid roll. Most people say that the dmg output i can give doesnt make a difference in a raid/boss encounter (personally i've seen otherwise).

Anyway, I feel that we are hybrid for a reason and it seems that Blizzard wont let us forget it. ( with our talent trees being what they are ) I think, personally that Paladin spec has minimal effect on efficiency in a raid and that its all about how you gear your character. Any opinions would be awsome to get back.

[Licia]

I'm going to get bashed on the head by several pallies (AZREAL) but I'm 20/0/31 and even in Naxx, at least so far, I did not see my spec being "bad" for the job i am required to do.
The only talents I am missing are the ones affecting spell crit (DF and HP) and even with low spell crit I am the paladin that has the most mana after patchwerk (no pots used, 75+ mot from gear). HS is fun but could use a lower cooldown or become a baseline ability with its 30sec cd right now.

If you are solo healing a group, having the spell crit may help but i do not think its critical due to its randomness.

[Monique]

If you are solo healing a group, having the spell crit may help but i do not think its critical due to its randomness.

It's not that random if you spec the holy talent for more crit--when you get Redemption, Licia, with all that extra +crit as well as have the talent, to not spec that way would probably be a big disadvantage.

[Licia]

Im based around MoT and redemption and even MORE mot. i simply did not need the spell crit for regen until today and still dont.

[romi]

<3 Licia

Just made the change from 31/0/20 to 21/0/30 working on cockroach in Naxx after acheiving AQ40 farm status (minus visc). Other then getting less crits i did not noticed anything different in my healing. Yes i use a little bit more mana but nothing to get alarmed about. I slap on more mp/5 and be done with it.

I'm a big fan of "each gear for each fights" and has long as Blizz designs encounters that permits me to be more versatile (Ct'hun, Frank) then i'm happy to get in my healing suit and do an amazing job at healing.

WTB more fights like Ct'hun.

[Licia]

Tried, tested and true. You people should let go of holy shield :P

[Azreal]

I'm not saying that those talents are required; I'm saying they help a lot during progression when everyone is going all out with consumables, flasks, greatly changing their talent specs for specific encounters, and yet you remain with a sub par raiding spec. It's disrespectful to a guild that demands excellence, and to all the members that are giving it their all. For example, on Patchwerk, I used a lot of consumables, and ended the fight with less mana than you. However, I put it almost double the healing you did in the same time frame.

Looking at it from your point of view, however, you are partially right. One spell crit is around 4.7 mana over time, if you ignore the healing benefits. So, you are only losing 23 mana over time from not having the talents. Since you have well over that from the next Paladin, you in fact gain similar if not more then they do already. However, the vast majority of Paladins have a lot more healing than you do. For example, Moise and I have almost double what you currently have, with only a few mana over time less after talents. As your gear improves, your talents will become less important. Eventually, talents that stand out will be Illumination and Healing Light. It's not a big problem now, and it will only get smaller. However, given the choice between a Paladin with healing talents and one who couldn't be bothered, it is obvious who will get the last raiding spot.

[Licia]

And you sound as if I did not have 3/3 healing light already.
You output twice as much healing. Grats. Get the new SCT and tell me how much each of those heals overhealed.
You have double the +healing... well grats on your rejuv gems, legplates of blazing light and pieces of redemption that I do not have.

You find it disrespectful? Well keep calculating your numbers of your heals, I will calculate the number of people i kept from dying.


Edit: I hate being stuck at doing only one thing. Thats why I rolled a paladin and its also why I have this spec. As far as healing goes, if it was not sufficient, me and Aga wouldve talked already.

[romi]

Get the new SW Stats it tell you right on the money the Total Healing, Overheals and Effective Healing (Total Healing - Overheals).

We are two ret pallys in the guild and right now everybody is on par with the healing ... sure the holy pallys have more mana after the fight but that doesn't help much.

[Azreal]

Double the effective healing. I also do not have a Rejuvenating Gem, Legplates of Blazing Light, or any pieces of Redemption. The extra healing I have comes from gear choices. Your neck and cloak are pure MoT. Mine are pure healing. All my enchant are pure healing. Some of your are mana over time. I'd almost wager that your total item level for your gear is higher.

I was agreeing with you; Healing Light and Illumination are the only important talents. However, when everyone is going "ballz to the wall" in terms of consumables, buffs, and talents it is upsetting to see someone who does not.

[Beran]

You find it disrespectful? Well keep calculating your numbers of your heals, I will calculate the number of people i kept from dying.


Bingo!

[Licia]

Sorry Az, had a bad day.
As for consumables, i always bring my own, never asked the bank to supply me. Rarely does my mana bar accept to go lower then 25% so I do not use as many consumables yeah, a mana pot now and then