DnT Rogues opinion on 1.12 combat daggers AR

[vitaL]

So I was finalizing my combat dagger build for 1.12 release and I came down to 2 remaining builds, 1 with adrenaline rush and 1 without. I came to thinking of the viability of adrenaline rush for most fights versus the loss of a ruthlessness and lethality point. Basically, the builds I came up with are:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0gcoLZGcVbMEz0boV

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=y0ecoxZGcVb0Ez0bZVo

I am just unsure of AR's "powers" seeing as I've been daggers forever and never played a sword / fist spec seriously. Just looking for opinions as to what you all think would yield the highest raid DPS :)

[Ultenth]

So I was finalizing my combat dagger build for 1.12 release and I came down to 2 remaining builds, 1 with adrenaline rush and 1 without. I came to thinking of the viability of adrenaline rush for most fights versus the loss of a ruthlessness and lethality point. Basically, the builds I came up with are:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0gcoLZGcVbMEz0boV

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=y0ecoxZGcVb0Ez0bZVo

I am just unsure of AR's "powers" seeing as I've been daggers forever and never played a sword / fist spec seriously. Just looking for opinions as to what you all think would yield the highest raid DPS :)

Interesting that you took a point in SoH, my guilds rogues have been discussing how much actual DPS increase you would gain due to being able to change your attack pattern because of the ability to feint less, and if the extra energy efficiency would be worth losing the points in Lethality. (None of them are considering losing AR). A lot of it seems to depend on the length of the fight, as the longer the fight the more you gain from it. Basically SoH gives you more sustained DPS, while Lethality seems to be better for short fights, or DPS'ing adds. I'm no rogue, but the idea of a potentially hidden gem of a talent in the sub tree that people haven't accounted for in their specs is very interesting. I wonder when the theorycrafters will start really discussing the pro's/cons of taking this talent (if they haven't already)

[vitaL]

I only chose a point in SoH because there's no where else really better to put that filler point for that build. Aggro is never really an issue for me, but where aggro is sensetive (like the Thaddius mini-bosses for us), being able to feint less seems nice.

It's interesting that your rogues are considering giving up some more points in lethality for it. I don't think the DPS gained from SoH attack patterns would outweigh lethality unless you're missing attacks just to feint twice in a row or something.

[Ultenth]

They aren't really seriously considering it, its just something new and interesting to theorycraft for them. I don't really know how often a raiding rogue feints anymore on fights that actually have aggro, so I have no clue how much this talent would actually come into play.

[Ultenth]

was reading this post and with the new patch being released in a few hours i decided to look into it for future pve combat dagger specs~ im sure this is thrown out there a lot im a pvp wh0re so havent really specced combat before so was wondering if this was a decent build

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xf0xZ0ey00Ez0boV

Not a rogue other than an alt that I don't raid with , but it seems to me that 2 points in imp SS would be a good idea, taking 2 out of LR. There are quite a few fights that exist where you either can't get to, or the mob simply doesn't have a back, where you need to use SS instead, and thats a pretty substatial increase in energy efficiency when you do.

Also, Murder seems kinda nice, but a lot of rogues I've talked to agree that its fairly situational. It doesn't work against elemenatals, undead, or bugs, which are quite a bit of end game mobs. You'd probably get a bigger DPS boost by taking one point from that and putting it in RS, and the other into pretty much whatever you want, though a point in SoH might not be a bad idea, just to try it out and see what it does for you.

[Jrix]

Not a rogue other than an alt that I don't raid with , but it seems to me that 2 points in imp SS would be a good idea, taking 2 out of LR. There are quite a few fights that exist where you either can't get to, or the mob simply doesn't have a back, where you need to use SS instead, and thats a pretty substatial increase in energy efficiency when you do.

Also, Murder seems kinda nice, but a lot of rogues I've talked to agree that its fairly situational. It doesn't work against elemenatals, undead, or bugs, which are quite a bit of end game mobs. You'd probably get a bigger DPS boost by taking one point from that and putting it in RS, and the other into pretty much whatever you want, though a point in SoH might not be a bad idea, just to try it out and see what it does for you.

That's just it, your opinion is shit since you're an alt. That rogue is his main.

Also:
The changes to feint mean that any passive aggro reductions are not a coefficient in the amount of aggro that feint removes, so it's been improved significantly, I don't think SoH will be remotely needed unless you simply have bad tanks.

[vitaL]

I would personally take 2 points out of Deflection for imp SS for the fights where you won't always be behind the mob (Thaddius, Heigan for 2 examples).


I'd also consider putting some points in endurance for the lowered evasion cooldown, might help on pre-patchwerk abom trash with their retarded cleaves :P

I'd also look into ruthlessness vs murder, since only 2 bosses in Naxx apply to murder at all =x

[Blackened]

That's just it, your opinion is shit since you're an alt. That rogue is his main.

Also:
The changes to feint mean that any passive aggro reductions are not a coefficient in the amount of aggro that feint removes, so it's been improved significantly, I don't think SoH will be remotely needed unless you simply have bad tanks.

But alas, I agree with him.

Why the hostility? :)

[Ultenth]

That's just it, your opinion is shit since you're an alt. That rogue is his main.

Also:
The changes to feint mean that any passive aggro reductions are not a coefficient in the amount of aggro that feint removes, so it's been improved significantly, I don't think SoH will be remotely needed unless you simply have bad tanks.

Hi I've played with some of the best rogues on my server for around 2 years now, and as I'm somewhat of a theorycrafting nerd I like to know just about everything about every class in terms of talents/abilities etc. (the better to kill them with no?) You don't think I might have picked up some info here and there, and in the process of leveling my own?

Oh, and since feint did get improved, why wouldn't a 10-20% increase in its ability be improved as well, allowing you to feint even less, which means less use of global cooldowns and energy for that. 20% increase in feint means you can do your part as a rogue, and ride as high as possible on the DPS charts without getting aggro, and thus gives you a larger buffer to do so with.

I'll bet you're the type of player that thinks AC has diminishing returns too huh?

[Xi-]

What's feint?

[vitaL]

I ended up going 2/3 ruthlessness without murder and with AR.

8 skill without having to wear the god damn ACLG is nice, I can't wait to bank those fuckers :D

[Jrix]

Hi I've played with some of the best rogues on my server for around 2 years now, and as I'm somewhat of a theorycrafting nerd I like to know just about everything about every class in terms of talents/abilities etc. (the better to kill them with no?) You don't think I might have picked up some info here and there, and in the process of leveling my own?

Oh, and since feint did get improved, why wouldn't a 10-20% increase in its ability be improved as well, allowing you to feint even less, which means less use of global cooldowns and energy for that. 20% increase in feint means you can do your part as a rogue, and ride as high as possible on the DPS charts without getting aggro, and thus gives you a larger buffer to do so with.

I'll bet you're the type of player that thinks AC has diminishing returns too huh?

Read my other posts cocksucker.

Also, AC does have dimishing returns. Mitigation clearly, obviously has diminishing returns, Blizzard just so happened to makes these diminishing returns in such a way to have the time to live remain a constant variable.

In many situations, the rogue doesn't have to feint at all, if your tank wields a TF, and doesn't suck.

other words are implied, bla bla bla.

As to my "hostility" it's in response you people accepting the advice from those in the DnT universe as a fallacy known as "false authority"

[Ultenth]

Read my other posts cocksucker.

Also, AC does have dimishing returns. Mitigation clearly, obviously has diminishing returns, Blizzard just so happened to makes these diminishing returns in such a way to have the time to live remain a constant variable.

In many situations, the rogue doesn't have to feint at all, if your tank wields a TF, and doesn't suck.

other words are implied, bla bla bla.

As to my "hostility" it's in response you people accepting the advice from those in the DnT universe as a fallacy known as "false authority"

Well, I'm pretty busy at work today, and I come here mainly for intelligent discussion, not for people who think they are ecool because they know curse words and insult people for no reason at all, in hopes of starting a flame-war to justify their worthless existance. So I'll simply say, feint is still used on several fights, including many that are some of the more difficult, and AC doesn't have diminishing returns if you look at the real math behind it, which I don't have the time or inclination to post here.

Go wallow in your ignorance, I refuse to bring myself down to your level and participate in a foolish argument started for no reason.

I'll simply state what is the subject of this thread, and that Murder is inferior because of its situational nature, and 1 point in relentless strikes is worth more than 2 in ruthlessness, probably worth more than 3 in ruth, and Imp SS is worth far more than 2% dodge or parry.

Go pick a fight elsewhere.

[Jrix]

Next time try actually responding to what I said instead of one word.

I will also restate, ARMOR MITIGATION is ON DIMINISHING RETURNS. How much time you have to live is a product of that variable along with others.

I will use an analogy:
You put rocket fuel inside a rocket. The more fuel you put in, the less each unit of fuel is worth in terms of distances alotted by the fuel since the mass of the fuel has an inverse effect on the value of each unit of fuel. Each point of fuel however contributes the same value to the total energy output because it's on diminishing returns. If it wasn't, then it would be a fucked up system. Rocket scientists don't care about the total energy output, they care about distance. In the same manner, any decently savy person in terms of knowledge regarding armor also should not care about time to live, since it means little in your goal of mitigation.


BACK TO ROGUES
The insights the poor OP here will gain mean little more than if he were to ask his own guildmates or others. I encourage fruitful discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has little more value than other discussion. Perhaps if you acknowledge this as a portal of discussion, rather than talking to god (i.e your god damn title) I wouldn't be as annoyed.
Alas, time to waste, ignorance to shun!