lvl 70 rogue builds

[krosis]

I was looking for a lvl 70 build that is sort of a pve/pvp hybrid build that allows me to do adequate dps but still not get my ass handed to me in the arena. At first I was considering going shadow step for strictly pvp but that would make my dps go down the toilet. Any suggestions?

[Goretex]

Shadowstep is terrible. 20/41 for swords, 40/21 daggers. I'm not to farmiliar with arena builds, this is what im using now: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oeZGcVbbVzxzGot .

Mutilate:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0kE0sizVoGcV0bV .

[ritacco]

quick question.... what would be a better build for pure pve utility and dps.... the mutilate spec you came up with or... the combat dagger build i posted in an other thread i believe it was 15/41/5 ???

[Goretex]

quick question.... what would be a better build for pure pve utility and dps.... the mutilate spec you came up with or... the combat dagger build i posted in an other thread i believe it was 15/41/5 ??? Test them both. If you have a fast offhand I would think 15/41/5 would be better.

[ritacco]

hmm well last time i checked for a mutilate build you need 2 very slow hard hitting daggers does this still apply? i will be testing these out once i come across a decent set of 70 daggers!

[Chopliver]

I <3 Gortex!

[Goretex]

I <3 Gortex!
hello!

[ShadowFox]

Right now I am 41/0/20 because I've heard heroic 5 mans are really complemented by Sap.

[Blyx]

If it helps... I assumed you were Daggers. If you're swords - just go Hemo/Combat and be done with it.

A Mutilate Build is a good hybrid PvE-PvP build. If you want to avoid the the PvE-centric Combat Build and the PvP-Centric ShadowStep build, Mutilate isn't a bad way to go if you understand the math behind making it work best. (Hint: Keep Find Weakness up at all times like Slice'n'Dice for Raiding.) Going from most PvP to most PvE variations.

41-3-17 OR 41-0-20 OR 41-20-0

The major difference in 41-0-20 vs. 41-20-0 is that in the first build the points in Sub. give you Opportunity which increases burst damage on backstabs and mutilates, etc., which can play a big part in PvP. In the second build the Dual Wield in Combat increases OH damage for Mutilate which helps to stabilize its spikey damage.. Also, the white damage increase will give you an all around higher DPS in raids thatn Opportunity would. You just won't see quite as large Mutilate double crit totals without Opportunity.

Also, Seal Fate - Premed, while somewhat less PvE potent, is a solid mix. Again, most PvP oriented to most PvE oriented. This one though, is never going to have you cracking the top 10 in DPS on a raid, unless you're raiding with some very lame players.

25-5-31 OR 25-0-36

Stunlock for days, lots of utility options, and Prep (an Arena must have I almost think.)

Take your pick.

[ritacco]

ye well im liking this reflex blade i got now... first off the reflex blade mainhand and stormweaver warblade off hand look amazing and are very good combat weps for 70 imo.. once i get a suficient dagger with base dmg atleast 100+ i would love to go back to my original build combat daggers... i feel that with combat daggers it can sustain just as much if not better dps than combat fist/swords.... its all really trial and error soo once i spec and see these first hand ill let ya guys know....


peace taco

[krosis]

I just picked up a Ced's Carver yesterday as a lvl 70 starting dagger and I was thinking of a 43/0/17 and testing out envenom or a 41/3/17 or something alongs those lines (mabe no imp gouge)

[Kelcia]

Spec's to try out for daggers:
Mutilate #1 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0RvxoVzVohZVMeM)(PvP, better burst damage)
Mutilate #2 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0RvxoVzVoGcV0bV)(PvE, built around sustained DPS)
Combat (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gc0xZGcy0rEz00MotV)
SF / AR (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecoxLoVZGcV0dEz00ho)
Vigor / Opp (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecoxLoVzZGcV0bEZV)

In the combat build, a case could be made for taking Relentless Strikes over Opportunity, particularly in a more raid-focused build. Or you could put 1 point in Relentless and 4 in Opp; in fact, that seems ideal to me. Also, in the SF / AR build, you may consider taking Vigor over Adrenaline Rush; I'm partial to AR myself, but both are great talents.

Spec's to try out for swords:
Combat (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0RxoZMIq0rVzx0Got)

I was thinking about including a Seal Fate / Adrenaline Rush build, but frankly I don't feel that it's worth losing Combat Potency. If you do want to try it out, just do the SF / AR build linked below under fist specs, and replace fist spec with sword spec.

Spec's to try out for fists:
Combat (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0RxoZMIq0rVzV0Got)
SF / AR (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0RxxoVZMeV0zVzV0ho)

Much like in the dagger SF / AR build, you could opt for Vigor over Adrenaline Rush. I also was considering including a 0/40/21 build, but I have no experience with combat/sub builds, especially not for

I didn't bother with any shadowstep builds because they're generally fairly obvious (not that these cookie-cutter builds are either, heh), and I'm hungry and the food lot is about to close. If you do need help with a shadowstep, feel free to email me.. I leveled 60-70 with a shadowstep build and know it pretty well. But again, it really isn't that complex. I also didn't include any hemo builds, because I've never tried one and honestly don't know what the best one would look like.

I'm not particularly creative with builds.. Envenom for instance is looking to be, with the right build, a viable alternative to eviscerate; I always opt for eviscerate talents over envenom talents, however, just because I'm so used to it. You could definately experiment with poison talents and see if you might be ready to replace eviscerate with envenom all together.

For cutting-edge level 70 builds using the relatively new rogue talents, you might look elsewhere. For the most part these builds are based on talents I've been using for two years and have grown used to.

[Goretex]

oh my god, its, kelcia.

[Kelcia]

Oh snap. It's goretex.

[krosis]

Thanks for the help but I have a few more specific questions about your first build with mutilate/sub if you don’t mind.
you skipped imp kidney and quick recovery in your build which to me seem like very nice things to pick up could you explain why?
and imp expose armor seems wasted unless your going 1vs1ing high armor opponents a lot.( i.e. feral druids or palys, warriors I usually try to stun lock more then get through their armor)
And one that’s really been bugging me envenom/vs/evis with talents envenom looks like it has the chance to hit pretty hard but it relies on deadly poison as well as Cp’s and brakes gouge but as we all know in the process has the pro of ignoring armor.
And there’s always the question of camo vs MoD in a mutilate build.
I was thinking something along the lines of either 43/3/15 or 41/3/17 to pick up imp ambush i'll post a link for both as soon as I get a chance.

[Kelcia]

Quick Recovery is a great talent, and looking over the first build I linked, it may be a good idea to substitute it in for 2 of the points in Vile Poisons, unless you're going for using Envenom over Eviscerate, in which case you could replace Imp. Evisc. The damage bonus of Improved Kidney Shot is pretty marginal, in my opinion. It might be nice for duels, but beyond that I wouldn't consider picking it up. Definately experiment with it though, as it's more than likely I'm wrong.

I used to skip Improved Expose Armor in all of my builds, but after some experimentation with it, it's really a great and way underrated talent. Not just on high armor targets; it's a great way to take down a number of classes, including casters (especially shadow priests). On the other hand, often before you get a chance to 5-pt Exp. Armor, your target'll be near or below half health, in which case it's wasted. With SF & Mut, though, it probably won't take that long. Again, I would just experiment. I love it, but there are times when it feels a bit wasted.

As I said, Envenom is a great new ability, and one that I'm sure many rogues are beginning to use instead of Eviscerate. In terms of damage, it was hitting harder for me without Vile Poisons on pretty much all targets (including clothies) than eviscerate. The real concern becomes the Deadly Poison, then.. As you pointed out, it'll pretty much ruin your gauges right off the bat, and will force you to spam Shiv quite a bit to get 5 charges up in time to coincide with your 5 combo points, which will lower your damage in between finishing moves significantly. Alternatively you could put Deadly Poison on both weapons and get 5 charges up quite a bit faster (see my work on poisons (http://www.rogueville.blogspot.com/) for more info on that), but you'd be forfeiting the increased damage of having Instant Poison / Anesthetic on mainhand.

Finally, as far as MoD versus Camouflage goes, that's really only a matter of preference. I always opt for Camo, because I simply cannot stand how slow you move without it. You can compensate for not having MoD by distracting at clever times and keeping an appropriate distance until you move in from behind (aside from rogue vs. rogue fights, when you'll wish you had it), but there isn't anything you can do to compensate for being slow as fuck ;P

[Wee]

Need some help with a dagger pvp spec.

i'am play 17/3/41
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihxcoxZhZEMcc0GRcxot

but i think it's not the right spec.

Can i play with multilate?!,... Sometimes i play pve so i must have a good dmg output and a good dmg in pve,...i think 31/8/12 in old day's with 60 was the best. This day's i don't know.

or this build:
41/5/15
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecoE0sVzVoGZEM0c

pls Help

[krosis]

I finaly hit 70 and i barok's reminder and ced's carver and i think im gona go with a 42/3/16 so i can pvp and dps. i'll post a link later today for any one whos interested.

[ShadowFox]

41/0/20 Atm.

I plan on sticking with this for awhile until my guild has a large number of people who had completed their heroic questlines. I find the DPS has been satisfactory so far, and it can hold its own in PvP. I am currently thinking of dropping Imp Evis, except I have ran into a number of enemies that are immune to poisons forcing me to use eviscerate(Curator being the most annoying poison immune mob so far). With 4/5 Vile Poisons I have had Envenom crit for just over 3K, and in PvE situations I find the ability far superior to eviscerate. The only problem is that sometimes you won't have poisons on your target immediately meaning your follow up mutilate won't hit as hard as desired. Quick Recovery is one of the best talents given to rogues so far.

[krosis]

hmm I was seriously considering a enevenom build but im not to keen on relying on posion procs to be able to use my damage finisher and it renders gouge useless so for now ill prob stick with some thing like this

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iheboxxsizVohZV0ec



if i do try an envenom build it will probably look like this

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboExsikVoZV0ec


any thoughts...?

[Kaizo]

oh my god, its, kelcia.

I didn't know you lived in Atlanta! /gasp



Also, I personaly think that combat mutilate might soon surpass mutilate sub. for even pvp. I personally think as daggers, the most annoying thing is being snared, or slowed with your target hopping around you, not exposing their back all the while. IMP sprint completely takes care of that, or atleast once a fight. It has to be considered that the single time is still valuable.

[ShadowFox]

The only reason I'd favor Sub talents for pvp is mainly for MoD and opportunity, but overall I can see someone going either way and using both builds effectively.

Also, I don't find there is such thing as a straight up "Envenom Build". Envenom is a very poor PvP skill no matter how you slice it mainly because to use envenom effectively you need to have it on both weapons to build up 5 stack on a player as quickly as you would like. Any amount of PvP expierence will tell you that Crippling poison is still a must have, and wound poisons a close second on usefulness in rogue pvp. You would still want Vile Poisons, because the talent prevents players from easily dispeling the poisons, which against druids and paladins can easily win you the battle.

As for your builds I would agree with the previous poster than Imp Kidney Shot is not really worth the points. Also, Master Poisoner is the single most worthless rogue talent around. Rogue poisons proc so damn often that 4% chance for them to not be resisted is pathetically weak, and a 30% chance to resist poison effects has very few uses atm outside of fighting other rogues.

[dcrico20]

First I would say not to focus on envenom or eviscerate, instead buff both because youre gonna want to use envenom against heavy armor classes, and eviscerate against casters and such. An eviscerate will do more damage against a clothie than an envenom, so always using one or the other is nerfing yourself.

Anyway,
A lot of these builds look great, but I think there are some talents missing that nobody should pass up on. The first is murder. I see a lot of people in these builds getting expose armor instead, which I think is a big mistake. Murder gives you 2% more dmg against everything except Bosses, for a fast attacking class with some big damage abilities this 2% buff is a huge difference. The exposed armor talent is not all that great in the fact that you never use it in raid situations (unless the MT is a druid or pally,) and if you do the 2050 armor it reduces is plenty. And in pvp I could never see myself exposing armor on a clothie like was stated earlier because if you have 5 combo points on them either an eviscerate is gonna kill em, or a kidney shot and a couple more mutilates will kill them. Also Quick Recovery is AWESOME and should never be skipped. Im not sure if it is a bug or what, but with quick recovery you actually gain energy whenever you miss a finishing move with the relentless strikes talent (the relentless strikes ability gives you the 25 energy back regardless of whether the finishing move hits and you also keep all your combo points.) Quick recovery also increases healing from pots and bandages by 20% which is awesome for your raid healers, as a heavy netherweave bandage ticks for 510 you shouldnt need more than one or two heals in most encounters.

Anyway, this is the mutilate build I have been using, I think it is the best build for utility and DPS as I still pick up Imp Sap, but also do top 5 Raid DPS. I put in the master poisoner talent mainly for pvp use against other rogues (it sometimes will help in raids but not too many encounters are poison based,) but you could certainly put those in expose armor or fleet footed (another pvp talent,) or wherever you deemed necessary for that matter.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053201055001025210513050050000000000 000000000502000000000000000000

[krosis]

I did the build i posted except i got imp sap and only 1 point imp ambush but i cant help but feel that somethigns off i just seem to hit and crit for next to nothing compared to backstab and i have every posible damage+ as far as talents and the targets are posioned. Feels like im a mele hunter( no offence intended) as in i feel some how off...

[dcrico20]

"Envenom is a very poor PvP skill no matter how you slice it mainly because to use envenom effectively you need to have it on both weapons to build up 5 stack on a player as quickly as you would like. "


Envenom is actually a really good PVP ability because of Shiv. Im currently using a 1.3 speed off-hand dagger which makes shiv cost 33 energy. With deadly poison on off-hand its really easy to get 5 deadly poison doses on anyone and you can do it really fast since it costs 12 less energy than SS (7 if you have the SS talent.) But like you said you should always have crip on your main hand.

[ShadowFox]

I understand Shiv allows you to apply it more often, but it still leaves you at a disadvantage against healing classes when you can effectively give them a 50% reduced healing debuff that they will have a hell of a time trying to dispel thanks to vile poisons.

Master Poisoner should do something along the lines of allowing rogues to poison targets that would normally be immune to poisons.

[krosis]

Also the disadvantage to shiv in a pvp situation would be the energy you consume trying to get 5 Dp’s on the target instead of being of able to use the energy for more damage your throwing it away to get poison procs in a raid situation it would be nice because as its already been it ignores armor and all the auto attacking ( especially with slice and dice) should stack up to 5 in no time.

[Wee]

need some help with an double sword or double fist (handweapon) combat tree,... pls help me

17/44/0 is this oke?!
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZGcEd0Vzx0Got

[Goretex]

need some help with an double sword or double fist (handweapon) combat tree,... pls help me

17/44/0 is this oke?!
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZGcEd0Vzx0Got

lose riposte.

[Wee]

lose riposte.

new 17/44/0

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZGcEb0VzxzGot

[Goretex]

get imp sprint, lose deflection.

[TacticalVirus]

Going for a Combat fist/sword PvE build? Then 19/42

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboxZMeV0rVzx0Got

[elessar]

Hi. I kinnda need help finding a suitable build for my rogue.
Atm I have crappy gear with 1.2k AP, 7% hit, 21% crit (without any talents). My weapons atm are 2 daggers (71.* dps on both, speeds 1.9 mh, 1.8 oh). So based on this numbers I think that a mutilate build would be the best choice (or maybe combat daggers?). I am more of a PVE nerd, although there are times when PVP takes most of the played time (rare though, and usually a respec doesn't hurt).
Also it seems to be a "requirement" to have imp sap atm, although I find it difficult to decide on what to sacrifice for those 7pts in sub.

Here's my current build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0gcobZ0eVbrEz0MMotVM

Could someone help me find a better one pls? :) I'm not really set on mutilate

Edit: for this kind of crappy gear would combat daggers do a better job?

[Stabbinyou]

I'm being told that 30/0/31 is the best spec for pvp is this true?

[ShadowFox]

I'm being told that 30/0/31 is the best spec for pvp is this true?

1v1...yeah you own anything I'd imagine. You have so many options with that build it isn't even funny.

[Blackened]

I'm being told that 30/0/31 is the best spec for pvp is this true?

without a doubt

[Goretex]

so 30/0/31 like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihecRg0oVZZEMeoMMRc ?

[Stabbinyou]

Well im guessing that is for swords or fists?

[ShadowFox]

so 30/0/31 like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0Re0oiZZxMeoMhRsbo ?

Meant to be used with daggers....kind of pointless to have Seal Fate without either Mutilate or Imp Backstab.

[Goretex]

yeah i see now.

[Stabbinyou]

envenom is really nice but so unreliable its sad. :(

[Blackened]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihg0ME0oiZZxMeoMhRoxo

[Jaged]

Hey I would like to get some imput back on this spec i came up with, I think it would be viable for pvp, and still really nice for pve, I could lose the 5 points of MoD i suppose and put it in dual weild.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecot0sVzZhfV0bxZE

[Goretex]

umm dual weild is very important for pve dps soooo yeah

[Jaged]

Ya, Just mixed between so many dagger pve specs, I heard mutilate isnt bad, I love ADR combat daggers, so many great options to choose from.


*Edit*-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecoxZhfV0rEz0zhRt
I was reading somewhere that with this build, the points in combat make up for the missing points in opportunity, anyone able to back that up?

[Tykken]

Hello everyone. :)

I just wanted to share my toughts about envenom, and show you my build since I feel it provides the utility to be quite useful in 5 man heroics aswell.

First of all, I ONLY, and I mean ONLY use envenom as my main finisher, aslong as the mobs aint immune ofcourse.

Always provide your group with a enhancement shaman, and you will make sure that your envenom does additional 20% more dmg ;)

2k non crits, and 4k crits ftw.

I do use deadly poisons on both my daggers, and I never ever have to use shiv since I have 5 points in improved poisons aswell.

When it comes to raiding, Im number 1 on the dmg meters every run. And often I find the next on the dmg meter list 25% below me on dmg.

Only time someone was close to me was when we had 2 rogues in Karazhan, and the other had a 15/41/5 build. (Alot of trash before shade wich are immune to poison)

Anyway, heres my build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iMe0oExoizVoMIVZVM

Currently using the dagger from Moroes and the scryers in oh atm.

Was thinking of skipping the 7 points in sub tough since I dont do that much 5 man anymore. Wasnt sure wich is better tough.
5 points in opportunity
5 points in Dagger Specialisation
5 points in DW specialisation

This spec aint "all that" for pvp tough. But it still kicks ass vs druids, warriors and pallies. With no "outer" buffs, I have critted warriors for 3.4k with envenom ;)

[Jaged]

I think your link you did is messed up

[Lux]

I think your link you did is messed up

Just remove a http://

[Tykken]

I think your link you did is messed up

post edited and link should be working

[Blyx]

THe most basic thing to remember when making a Mutilate build are these simple Mathematically provable facts:

1. Dual Wield will ALWAYS yield better PvE DPS in the build.
2. Opportunity will ALWAYS yield higher Top End Mutilate/BS Crits/Hits.
3. Critical Strike % plays a gigantic role in how effective Mutilate can be for both PvE and PvP.

With the way Crit% is scaling downward as people get to Level 70, and the apparent lack of huge + Critical Strike items so far in BC, both Mutilate and Seal Fate are taking the largest hits in terms of DPS. If you go Mutilate, do everything in your power to maximize your Critical Strike %, even if it means slightly gimping your AP.

I'm still a tad perplexed by the Level 60, 32% Critical Strike, 41% Dodge, +15% Hit, 1080 AP Rogue --- transforming into the Level 70, 26% Critical Strike, 30% Dodge, +13% Hit, 1400 AP Rogue. TIer 4 and Tier 5 seem to have omitted Agility on a lot of the pieces, and I can't say as that makes me terribly happy.

[Tykken]

Think Im gonna give it a try with +5% crit to daggers yeh.

[krosis]

any thoughts on SF/prep? i havent tryed it and was wondering how it works just out of curiosity.

[Goretex]

any thoughts on SF/prep? i havent tryed it and was wondering how it works just out of curiosity.
Ive been playing around with it this weekend. It's a great spec tons of burst damage giving you the ability to premed cs cb evis bs ks... awesome.

[Reedy]

I use 31/25/5 and absolutely swear by it

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iGecox0oizZGcV0byzZV

I pvp and pve in equal quantities, wether it be BG's, arenas (I 2v2 with a paladin), world pvp, karazhan/25man or farming for primals/scryer rep I find i have an answer for pretty much everything with this build. Vigor is more than a pvp talent, it is THE secret to soloing mobs with daggers.

I can talk about this build for days, but it is quite rare and not a lot of rogues use it. I don't like mutilate, it is too inconsistent and SS/combat just doesnt suit me after playing daggers for so long.

[andrewf87]

Hey, this question is directed at the dnt rogues, what builds are you using for your pure pve ie raids ? Im currently using 15/41/5 but was wondering if you could link your builds as im interested to see what builds your using or if your 15/41/5 , how you distrubuted the points.
Cheers

[Blackened]

using http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZGcVbrVzx0GRt atm for pve

[andrewf87]

Why have you decided to go for a swords build?

[saccharin]

Why have you decided to go for a swords build?

I'm guessing it has to do with the swords he has. :P

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Blacken

Also, when gear is about equal, how big of a difference is 5% crit (daggers), compared to a possible extra few smacks that also have their own chance of critting (swords)? There are a nice selection of 85+dps daggers out there, but none have the average damage that the selection of 85+dps swords have. 166-310 damage one hander? Ouch.

-sac

[Blackened]

http://www.dtguilds.com/images/BAM.jpg

It's called Windfury.

[Goretex]

is your dps significantly reduced without totem? Or do you still compete with a mutilate / cp dagger build?

[ShadowFox]

I always thought people went with swords because they were lazy.

[Blackened]

Mutilate sucks, to answer your question though, I couldn't tell you because we A) don't have any Mutilate Rogues, and B) don't have a Rogue that can Mutilate in PvE with any type of efficiency, the only one we had was Mashangi and he doesn't play anymore. I suspect I could keep up or outdamage a Mutilate Rogue given that I didn't have to fear for my life everytime I press 2.

[Earl]

Im 41/20 atm and it works great as a balanced build and il probably stick with it as long as im doing any mentionable amount of pvp. But i do belive that 15/41/5 is better dps, i used that for a time to(using the night blade/searing sunblade) and now im using malchazeen /night blade, the dps is a bit lower now then it was with 15/41/5 even though my gear itself has gotten some upgrades.
I see s many people saying how you need imp sap for heroics etc, wich is hardly true. ive done more or less all herioics and its ver very rarly a problem to sap, there are a _few_ pulls, were the packs are so squished together that you cant sap 1 without aggroing the other, but the "you get sapped then instant gibbed" argument is hardly worth anything since if you sap then run towards ur group the mobs wont catch you.

[Unforgive]

What is your opinion of this build for a pve/pvp build... I play to pvp but want to be effective in pve also.

Thanks

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3250231050020000000003200152022500000 000000005500030300000000000000#none

[Klorox]

Just...no.

You don't have any of the 21 talent point abilities from any of the trees, you have Remorseless Attacks and Murder instead of Ruthlessness or something at least a tad bit more useful.

If you're going to make a build that's useable in PvP and PvE, your best bet is either hemorrhage spec'd, mutilate spec'd (though I highly discourage it), or have some variation of combat down to adrenaline rush but keep improved sap for PvP. Something along the lines of 17/32/12.

Although I must say you made me laugh when I saw points into improved SS. If you're using daggers like I suspect...well, you put 3 points into Imp. BS and Imp. Ambush, then you would NEVER use sinister strike if you were a halfways intelligent rogue and therefore it's two wasted talent points.

I'm sorry, but the build you posted would be worthless in any facade of WoW.

[Unforgive]

I appreciate the input... here is what I worked out based on some advice you gave...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3050031050000000000003020252022550000 200010003502000300000000000000

I quit the game in June and was a dagger rogue as 30/8/13 and was great in pve/pvp. I was trying to build something close to that. I had the SS for PVE only because of the inability to get behind some targets. But I agree and took it back out of my tree. Please input on this build. Thanks.

[Unforgive]

Was actually looking at it a bit more and it seems to me this build here would probably fit me better seeing as I was a 30/8/13 build before. Am I missing or misjudging anything in this?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3050230050221025010000000000000000000 000000005502030300321013200000

[krosis]

meh honestly I gave up on mutilate a long time ago now im just waiting for the last few arena points I need to get the main hand fist weapon. I'll probably end up going go 18/43/0

[Shroomism]

This is my raiding mutilate spec:
41/20 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0eboEMsizVohfV0bV

You can opt out of fleet footed for imp poisons or something, but I find poisons proc enough anyway, and I can just shiv if I need to get one up there.. I like fleet footed for pvp.

Mutilate takes a bit of finesse to get the most efficient damage cycle. You can't just sit back and spam mutilate, as you are building CPs very fast and need to have a good finisher rotation. Generally I try to keep SnD and Find Weakness buffs up at all times.. while cycling through SnD/ Trinket - Rupture/ Trinket -CB- Envenom as finishers depending on whats up. Envenom basically replaced Eviscerate for me, as it ignores armor and with vile poisons it can do some pretty sick damage.. 3500+ envenom crits are not uncommon. Basically being top dps with mutilate takes a lot of work.. watching your buffs and timing your energy and cooldowns effectively.

But with this spec I can easily keep up with the 2 combat rogues on the meters and sometimes pass them.. I am often #1 on the charts even for fights like Gruul and Prince... but not Curator :(
But this spec also allows me to be an awesome support class/burst damage for PvP as well.. so it's rather versatile. Imp KS and QR is FTW.. both in PvE and PvP

I did the 30/0/31 route for a while, and that owns Arenas and World PvP.... but its pretty gimped for raid damage.

Only thing that concerns me is poison immune mobs, so I'll likely have to respec combat for Hydross this weekend.

[krosis]

despite my previous coment. i didnt give up on mut in fact atm im thinking about going 41/20/0 after the changes to sap to improve my raid dps . Atm i use gladiator shanker(main hand) and emrald ripper (offhand) if any ones got a good build worked out and wouldnt tossing me a link to it i would much appreciate it

[GrImRiP]

Hi All new here. been on here for hours reading builds i have spent lots of gold changeing builds i would like some advice on a dagger/ sword combat build any input would be gr8 thanks GrImRip........

[Natall]

Combat daggers is dead to me if that means anything to you.
for goodness sakes, look at old posts << >>

[GrImRiP]

for goodness sakes, look at old posts << >>



hmm Ok it was l8 i was just asking for advice

[GrImRiP]

ok was bad

[/URL]


[URL="http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZheV00Ez0zhoZxMLz"] (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxZheV00izhzhoZxMLz)

[Blackened]

Can some1 link the 17-32-12 up plz i want to do pvp pve and like the sound of this but dont want to waste any talents ty

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxZheV00izhzhoZxMLz


or for 2 daggers http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZheV00Ez0zhoZxMLz


What the fuck talent builds are those

[Chris]

Can some1 link the 17-32-12 up plz i want to do pvp pve and like the sound of this but dont want to waste any talents ty

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxZheV00izhzhoZxMLz


or for 2 daggers http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZheV00Ez0zhoZxMLz

Worst 2 Specs I have seen. Do people actually play with that? You need to re-evaluate subscribing to this game, if so.

[Natall]

Worst 2 Specs I have seen. Do people actually play with that? You need to re-evaluate subscribing to this game, if so.
QFT. People in this forum have made it clear that combat daggers suck, so why would you spend the majority of your Talent points in combat for daggers? Go spec mutilate or go get some swords.

[Blackened]

QFT. People in this forum have made it clear that combat daggers suck, so why would you spend the majority of your Talent points in combat for daggers? Go spec mutilate or go get some swords.
that's not even the point.

[Chris]

QFT. People in this forum have made it clear that combat daggers suck, so why would you spend the majority of your Talent points in combat for daggers? Go spec mutilate or go get some swords.

Yeah, you really missed it if that's what you think the problem is.

[GrImRiP]

I dont have that build i have shadow step but i wanted to know if it was any good? i guess i got my answer a little ruder than i expectd but ty for the reply. so can some 1 link a good build im not really 1 for assas but if it is good for pvp pve then link away

[Drek]

Can some1 link the 17-32-12 up plz i want to do pvp pve and like the sound of this but dont want to waste any talents ty

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0oxZheV00izhzhoZxMLz


or for 2 daggers http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whe0oxZheV00Ez0zhoZxMLz

This has to be a joke, seriousl...I mean I mostly just lurk these forums or check my SS thread but MAN this deserved a reply....

[GrImRiP]

Ok i have come up with this build what do you think ?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wGecot0oizZMIV0byzZm

[GrImRiP]

[quote=Reedy]I use 31/25/5 and absolutely swear by it

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iGecox0oizZGcV0byzZV

Just a Tinkerd with of reedy's thanks im happy with it but i open with ambush as it tends to do more dmg i put 1 in vile poisons as a mistake but seems to have worked out ok

[Dodgy]

Please, just stop.

These random builds sucks.

Go mutilate or something for pvp and combat swords for pve.

[Blackened]

No offense bro but those builds SUCK.

[Reedy]

31/25/5 is pretty dated now, i dropped it when i got malchazeen and have stuck with 15/41/5 ever since.

31/25/5 was well balanced and quite fun to play in pve and pvp early on, but as your backstabs get bigger, haste rating on items increases and +hit goes up, combat potency simply offers too much scalability to say no to.

[Blackened]

prior to this thread i had never heard of 31/25/5. Probably because it sucks.

[GrImRiP]

I suppose it depends on how you play? I used it about 6 months ago with my 1st rogue found it verry usefull and easy to use.But the reason i came on here was beacause i was looking for a new build something for pvp pve i like daggers for ambush etc theres so many new builds on here its hard to choose they all look good i use 2 ced's carver's(i know ppl say daggers are cr@p)now but i like them. The 1st 2 builds i showd were 1ns i just put togetther they were NEVER used i just wanted an oppinion BUT thank you for you time to reply ..

[Goretex]

prior to this thread i had never heard of 31/25/5. Probably because it sucks.

He's right. Their is a reason people generally follow the same spec depending on what they are doing.. because it is the best. Why deviate from something that is and has been proven to utilize the best talents and abilities for what you are trying to achieve?

[flechett3]

Nevermind, I should learn to RTF threads.

[Fatrabbit]

Heya guys,

after allot of mind breaking thinking i've decided to pickup my rogue again.
I've leveld the char to 70 raided kara 2x and rerolld pally 1-70 levling.

Becaus of the epic memories of gameplay with the barman shanker and 31/8/13 i pulled out my rogue again and started some pvp and arena with rl friends (Priest - Hunter - Rogue aka me)
Loved it and wanna gear up my rogue dagger style as i've alwyas been.

Ofc i got some question about my build + arena.
Now i use 30/0/31 Prep in arena
nice quick dmg combo (Premed - CS - BS - ColdBlood+pwr trinket - Evis - BS - BS)
But after reading some i want to use mutilate in combo with a opp and envenome deadly poison technique.
There for i made this build and was wondering what are your opinions about this one:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMeboE0sizVoZEMc0Mh

Incombo with poisons: instant HM and Deadly OH
maybee change instant with crip to irritate some in pvp not (sure about that)

Now my stats unbuffed aint so super now but you gotta start somewhere ^^
HP: 7.7k (ofc working on the 10k limit but don't wanna gimp my other stats)
ATK: 1200
Crit: 22%
HIT: 147ish
Dual Ced's Carvers + 5 dps enchant on both >.<
lame i know but im working on Arena daggs or do you guys recommand other daggs?

[krosis]

I haven't been Mutilate spec'd in a while but...


-for pretty much just arena and if you wanna go the route of Mutilate/Subtlety

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oEosizVoZAMcczh

wound poison main hand and crip offhand
basic opener combo is cheapshot>mut>kidney shot>CB Mut> if you can sneak another mutilate in while they're ks'd do it after that, its situational but the main damage you'll do is mutilate's and high point eviscerates due to the high combo point generation of mutilate.


-for pve/pvp (my personal favorite mutilate pvp build)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheooE0sizVohfV0bV

You gain Imp. Gouge for 1vs1 encounters. Off-Hand spec makes up for the lack of Opportunity and raises your white damage too. Improved Sprint is never a bad thing it plays the same as mut/sub you just have to more careful in stealth and you dont ambush as much in pve with it i used double deadly poison and if i remeber right a rotation like 1 or 2 point SnD then 5 point envenom(CB if up) but make sure you keep find weekness up which meens doing a finisher every 10 seconds which should be too hard*


-for strictly pve I'd do something like this

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboExoizVohfV0bV

Just keep in mind combat daggers is better for raid dps then mutilate is.


*Nothing is going to save the train-wreck that this "sentence" is.

[Chris]

The above poster makes my brain hurt.

[Blackened]

I fixed it a little so that us lower lifeforms can understand his clearly superior language.

[Fatrabbit]

I fixed it a little so that us lower lifeforms can understand his clearly superior language. :pNice

Well But would http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMeboE0sizVoZEMc0Mh (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fMeboE0sizVoZEMc0Mh)work?
And does the dmg form poison profit from any stat? like atack power?

Since warriors Crush me like a pancake (lacking Hp stats remeber ^^) i was thinking of a ruture / garrot / deadly pos. / envonome style :shit:

/Edit
I see in game that poison is nature dmg >.< stack +nature damge would be dumb :clown:

[Goretex]

Jesus christ thats a lot of babbling.

If you want to kill a warrior save your cooldowns and use maces. Then if you're lucky and you stay inside charge range you just might win.

[vitaL]

Sub Mutilate < Combat mutilate for PvP, unfortunately.

But, in _most_ (read: most, not all), combat maces is gonna be better than mutilate anything.

[krosis]

i never professed to being an English major ;]

[lambach]

You do admit you passed 5th grade though right? I gotta agree with goretex bro, go maces.

[Fatrabbit]

I gotta agree with goretex bro, go maces.

Even with the upcoming so calld "nerf" to the stun proc and haste rating?
I remeber beeing combat @ wow 1.1 like 2 years ago never tried it again.
So think im gonna lookup some playstyle movies and learn abit about it.

@blackened
a bit offtopic but this website system (assume cms) you use is it a sponsored, payed or free to download?
i gotta make a forum / raid schedule / guild website system and the only free ones i have suck D:

[Schmitty]

They're not nerfing rogue mace spec, only the warrior one. That being said. If anyone mentions Mutilate/Subtlety again I'm going to choke someone.

[Blackened]

Even with the upcoming so calld "nerf" to the stun proc and haste rating?
I remeber beeing combat @ wow 1.1 like 2 years ago never tried it again.
So think im gonna lookup some playstyle movies and learn abit about it.

@blackened
a bit offtopic but this website system (assume cms) you use is it a sponsored, payed or free to download?
i gotta make a forum / raid schedule / guild website system and the only free ones i have suck D:

Send Slaven a PM as he's dealt with most of that, not myself :)


Shitty, don't hurt people. Take it out on the Flag Pole.

[lambach]

Even with the upcoming so calld "nerf" to the stun proc and haste rating?
I remeber beeing combat @ wow 1.1 like 2 years ago never tried it again.
So think im gonna lookup some playstyle movies and learn abit about it.

@blackened
a bit offtopic but this website system (assume cms) you use is it a sponsored, payed or free to download?
i gotta make a forum / raid schedule / guild website system and the only free ones i have suck D:

What have you been since 2 years ago? Just wasting space? Playing alts?

[Goretex]

Spec 19/42 and never look back.

Though I did like 41/20 when I was on a burn team.. I still think maces are more effective.

[Fatrabbit]

What have you been since 2 years ago? Just wasting space? Playing alts?

Doh!!
I played on 3 chars,
I could never make up my mind but now its solid playing on my rogue.

Send Slaven a PM as he's dealt with most of that, not myself
Thanks, lux pm'ed me allready!

as for the build :agree:
Think im gonna follow goretex advise and try 19/42.
ohh wel after beeing not active on my rogue for over 6 months the unlearn talents costs went from 50g to 25g or something... lets do something about that!!:D

[Shane'O mac]

:orly: So glad to hear the mace spec will still be the shit for rogues. I swore we would take a beating with the nerf stick this patch... Mace spec, sword spec, and Haste getting nerfed. I was like, GG and a lot of QQ'n.

So yea take mace spec off that nerf list and you have the best PvP spec in the game.. (woot woot)

Mutilate is for the rogues that cant put the daggers away..

"Put the daggers down, you are going to poke an eye out" :ninja:

I would rather bash your brains in with my mace's for PvP and out DpS you with my Swords in PvE :evil:

[Goretex]

Give rogues hamstring please.

[Fatrabbit]

Argggg my account got hijacked,

Because my friend's computer had a FUCKING KEYLOGGER ON THAT SHIT FUCK .... GODDAMN FUCK!
- 70 BE pally DELETED
- 70 warrior DELETED
- 62 Shaman DELETED
All alts are naked and my 70 rogue has no bags or nothing left on it only thing he still got was his gear....
now I'm already waiting 3 days on blizzard to rebuild my account....FUCK
I want a Brewfest mount!!
Hamstring would be cool too! FUCK








On a side note, what the fuck does this have to do with Rogue builds.
-Management.

PS: Please think before you type, or use something other then your face on the keyboard, making your posts readable is quite taxing.

[Apocrypa]

Hey guys I haven't been on here on a long time, and I know this is months old... but grats on illidan and shit. I have since re-rolled and I am a 70 mace rogue. Wanting to get advice on pve raid spec.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhg0ovZGcEz0Vt00uot

I was thinking about getting rid of riposte, what do you all think?

[Goretex]

Riposte + raid spec = no.

[Apocrypa]

Riposte + raid spec = no.


So just drop that? Put it in vit?

[lambach]

Mace + raidspec = no

[Apocrypa]

I don't have swords yet, and I like to pvp, once I get swords to replace my maces then I will.

[Goretex]

Mace + raidspec = no

I did really well with BT maces. But 6x sword spec proc owns pretty hard.

[Shane'O mac]

Here is a typical cookie cut PvE mace build with 3 points left over for you to play with.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxZMjVb0Vt00GRt

I personally like puting 2/2 in Murder.. but not everyone does, because not all bosses and mobs will get the effect from it, only about 75%(random number picked out my ass) will.

I say Lightning Reflexes for dodge over parry, because if they didn't fix it, on some strait tank and spank boss fights a parry will reset the bosses attack CD and make it look like the tank just got one shot, when it was two attacks one after another. Known issue with Gruul.

-Remember its just a typical cookie cut build, You can play with it as you will, plus the 3 points left over still need a good home that you see fit.

[Blackened]

where the fuck did you learn how to spell?

[Shane'O mac]

fixed ;D.. sorry Blackened

[Goretex]

A little something about weapon skill:

According to http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/wow/weaponskill.htm on a level 73 mob:

at base 350 weapon skill your missrate is 23% and target hit rating would be 362.69

at 360 weaponskill your missrate is 19.5% and target hit rating would be 307.50

[Shane'O mac]

Isn't weapon expertise only sword, fist, and dagger? If so, then its a waist of 2 points for a mace build?

I only read what it says in the talent tree, If I have been missing something this hole time Im sorry. For sure never raid with out Weapon Expertise, Im mainly a sword rogue so I do use Weapon Expertise with my normal raid build.

but as a mace build I never used Weapon Expertise because of what it says.

[Goretex]

Yeah you're right. The weapon skill adjustment is all the same though from mace specialization. I was thinking that when I posted at 5am. I edited the post.

[Kahrdis]

Mace Spec / Prep = Raid spec

[Drayke]

Figured I'd post in the most relevant, up-to-date thread I could, so here it goes.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Firetree&n=Desense

In the past, I've never quite had any trouble being #1 on meters. My basic rotation( garrote/ambush, snd, 5 cp's, snd, then 5cp rupture as finisher) with subsequent burning of cooldown's has been more than enough to keep me on top. Lately though, a certain warlock in my guild (with about 1200 shadow damage, destruction spec) has been working me over on more than one occasion.

The most recent example was on our offday karazhan run, when we did Nightbane. I took a look at the meters in the first minute, and thought " I'm about 10k ahead, no need to worry." Being a paranoid, dps meter freak that I am, I checked again after the 2nd phase and found that this warlock had passed me up by over 40k. Now I had been burning haste pots (because I have a huge supply) and every cooldown I had, within my normal rotation and this kid was still stomping me. Granted, there is the aoe section, but I really don't see how I'm so far behind, even with lack of crits.

Any advisors are welcome to check my armory, which is posted above this wall of text, and tell me what might be wrong with my gear..or possibly just something I'm missing altogether.

Thanks for any input.

-Drayke

[Chris]

I say Lightning Reflexes for dodge over parry, because if they didn't fix it, on some strait tank and spank boss fights a parry will reset the bosses attack CD and make it look like the tank just got one shot, when it was two attacks one after another. Known issue with Gruul.

Just so you know, this occurs when the boss parries your attacks, not when you parry its attacks.

[Chris]

Figured I'd post in the most relevant, up-to-date thread I could, so here it goes.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Firetree&n=Desense

In the past, I've never quite had any trouble being #1 on meters. My basic rotation( garrote/ambush, snd, 5 cp's, snd, then 5cp rupture as finisher) with subsequent burning of cooldown's has been more than enough to keep me on top. Lately though, a certain warlock in my guild (with about 1200 shadow damage, destruction spec) has been working me over on more than one occasion.

The most recent example was on our offday karazhan run, when we did Nightbane. I took a look at the meters in the first minute, and thought " I'm about 10k ahead, no need to worry." Being a paranoid, dps meter freak that I am, I checked again after the 2nd phase and found that this warlock had passed me up by over 40k. Now I had been burning haste pots (because I have a huge supply) and every cooldown I had, within my normal rotation and this kid was still stomping me. Granted, there is the aoe section, but I really don't see how I'm so far behind, even with lack of crits.

Any advisors are welcome to check my armory, which is posted above this wall of text, and tell me what might be wrong with my gear..or possibly just something I'm missing altogether.

Thanks for any input.

-Drayke
Might want to look over your socketing, hit is more important than other stats, and if you are interested in PvE damage you should really never socket stamina except for the meta activation. That being said, its likely you are outgeared, hard to say without seeing his armory.

[Drayke]

Yes, my only 2 blue sockets are for the meta-gem activation.

As for the warlocks armory, if you'd really like to see a gear comparison:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Firetree&n=Xerxess

We really just go back and forth in terms of who's #1 on dps. It just troubles me with all the heresay about rogues pve damage being far and above that of anything a warlock can put out. I can't cite specific examples of people saying this, but I see it as a rule of thumb to be #1 as a rogue on certain fights.

[lambach]

If you look at hte pics goretox put in the picture thread; The illidan blades guy with super haste was still second to a warlock. Their dps is stupid also.

[Shane'O mac]

Just so you know, this occurs when the boss parries your attacks, not when you parry its attacks.Haha... your right, Im going to go with Goretex's excuse, It was late here.


I know I know.. that was lame >.>

[Blackened]

If you look at hte pics goretox put in the picture thread; The illidan blades guy with super haste was still second to a warlock. Their dps is stupid also.
probably because said rogue fuckin sucks

[Goretex]

Lambach you do realize a warlock + aoe is like the best dps on hyjal trash waves right? Too bad rogues can't attack 10 targets at once :*(

[lambach]

Hey...hey...its not my fault you cant play your class. Blackened wouldnt let a lock beat him.

[Blackened]

not with fucking warglaives and shit i wouldnt

[Zyz]

Hey...hey...its not my fault you cant play your class. Blackened wouldnt let a lock beat him.
cute

[Blackened]

you know its trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[DemonTX]

id have to say the best part about playing a rogue is shitting on a warlock. i only went after fucking gay ass warlocks when i played on edras rogue

[Goretex]

Also fun shitting on dps warriors with all cooldowns up.

[-Cru-]

A quick question about a possible pvp/pve hybrid build that i have thought of (may not be original) and im wondering what your opinions of it are, and whether it can be successful or modified to be more effective.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxZG0Ez0Vzx0hoZxzeobhk

cheers
Cru.

[Broox]

everyone spec hemo go

[Chris]

A quick question about a possible pvp/pve hybrid build that i have thought of (may not be original) and im wondering what your opinions of it are, and whether it can be successful or modified to be more effective.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxZG0Ez0Vzx0hoZxzeobhk

cheers
Cru.

Would skip riposte and get weapon expertise.

[Chris]

11/28/22 is your best bet for Hemo + PvE

[koosa]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxZG0Ez0Vzx0hoZxzeobhk

despite the first 15 in Sub, any concerns?

my rogue is in shit gear - this is really just future reference

[Chris]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxZG0Ez0Vzx0hoZxzeobhk

despite the first 15 in Sub, any concerns?

my rogue is in shit gear - this is really just future reference

What's this build for?

[koosa]

Hemo build for Heroic Level instances and 1600 arena pvp.


<<< Cheap

[krosis]

with the upcoming changes to hemo im gona be speccing it for arena and i was wondering what variations of this build if any everyone is looking at so far the standard seems to be 0/33/28

[-Cru-]

The new hemo buff is very exciting! Stunlock fun once again. Ive come up with 2 builds for hemo:

Attack Power Build - 17/3/41 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxZhZxzeohGRsxox
Meant for larger damage all round with attack power gems and gear this should produce nice damage. Prep and premed add versatility when killing an oponent.

High Crit Build - 32/3/26 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxhsizZhZxzeobGRo
A high crit % is needed in order for seal fate to make this build fantastic. 5 combo points should be easy to obtain with this build. Prep once again adds a degree of variation when fighting.

Depending on how you play, these should be pretty effective pvping, tho i dont know how well they would work in pve...

[Shane'O mac]

For PvP, coming patch 2.3
I like the AR/Prep build.

If not, the good old Deep combat mace build still works well for PvP vs. all the new Subtle changes.

The things I dont like about the new subtle builds, is I feel like a CD whore and then Im your bitch if I don't have any CD

[Chris]

High Crit Build - 32/3/26 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxhsizZhZxzeobGRo
A high crit % is needed in order for seal fate to make this build fantastic. 5 combo points should be easy to obtain with this build. Prep once again adds a degree of variation when fighting.

Doubt Seal Fate is gonna do very well in arena.

[krosis]

SF (and lethality to a lesser extent) is going to be garbage for this build Imo because whats its going to do is NOT rely on crit damage (due to high resil)

from what ive heard in arena its going to output as much damage as a combat maces build while giving you 2 sets of cooldowns.

[Goretex]

madness of the betrayer is so good now :E

[Chris]

Did they change it?

[lambach]

Hey guys......so my rogue theory craft is ususally pretty good, so ive been embarrased to ask. But my top dps sword rogue asked if he could switch to hemo. Could someone do a quick layout for me about what changed in hemo to make it go from laughable to possibly being able to out dps full combat swords? Also he was saying he might want a slow offhand now cuase he stacks haste and itd be more efficient, is that true? Thanks for the help.

[Goretex]

no but we need more hit so :(

[Chris]

Haven't looked at a slow offhand (for fairly obvious reasons, imo). But hemo, in an appropriate build, will out perform deep combat currently(on paper at least...I'll let you know how it goes later today). 125% weapon damage and the increase in damage on the debuff puts it over the top. Throw in dirty deeds and you are all set.

[Goretex]

Hey guys......so my rogue theory craft is ususally pretty good, so ive been embarrased to ask. But my top dps sword rogue asked if he could switch to hemo. Could someone do a quick layout for me about what changed in hemo to make it go from laughable to possibly being able to out dps full combat swords? Also he was saying he might want a slow offhand now cuase he stacks haste and itd be more efficient, is that true? Thanks for the help.
Hemorrhage: This ability now does 125% of weapon damage.


Also see Skromzorz hemo on ptr for like 9.4k. Hemo will probably do well in raids now.

So what would the raiding hemo build be? I haven't looked at it really.

[Chris]

11/27/23 is what I've settled on 4/5 Swords Spec, 2/2 Dirty Deeds.

[Goretex]

So like this? http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhg0oZhfV0bVzLMZircoMhMo

[Chris]

No imp evis. Murder 2/2 and Ruthlessness 3/3.

[Jahre]

Double AR hemo go!

[Chris]

Not worth it for sustained DPS.

[Jahre]

I meant for arenas Chris, I think it might be the way to go for season 3. Could get someone down pretty low.

[Chris]

I meant for arenas Chris, I think it might be the way to go for season 3. Could get someone down pretty low.

Zzzz....arena builds are lame.

[Goretex]

I still like mutilate in 3s but for 5s that will be fucking lethal.

[lambach]

Gore and Cri, thanks for the info.
Mathmatically should all our rogues be switching out? I guess i mean can you let me know after you test it out tongiht?

And yeah, arena builds....zzzzz

[Chris]

They should, mathmatically, since the build yields (again, on paper) more individual dps. It would be a net gain for the raid, assuming it performs as expected.

[Shane'O mac]

More Energy = More DpS, no?

Not having AR or Combat Potency you would lose out on alote of energy for the boss fight.

Would it be worth it for a few damage boosts?

This gives a rogue more raid Utility and not individual DpS and damage done, right? No more Rogue being #1 on Damage meters but we can give the Raid a Physical DpS out put, while Sustaining good DpS.

Plus the last 35% on a boss fight would be huge bursts hits. That alone would be cool to check out.

I guess I will have to wait and see what you come up with Chris (in game play and not just Paper), I guess I could try it out a bit myself.

[Chris]

Competitive, but they keep stealing my charges.

[Shane'O mac]

Yea I remember that from PrBC old world 40 mans. Spaming Hemo and by the time I had energy to do another attack for a 5 point combo, the charges would be gone.

but 40 mans, thats alote more people in the raid useing the Debuff, where in 25 mans you have way less and few Physical DpS in the raid.

[Goretex]

So far a 15/41/5 build is top dps for most of the night. All 3 with swords went hemo.. overall I would say combat is still probably better.

[Vigorous]

My damage went up as hemo, even in ZA.

[Chris]

So far a 15/41/5 build is top dps for most of the night. All 3 with swords went hemo.. overall I would say combat is still probably better.

Don't agree.

[tkon]

I'd imagine the build takes a second to get use to. Grant it not much has changed.

[Volarun]

We did SSC real quick yesterday to attune some Applicants and one of the rogues was hemo (Only had 2 at any given time last night). His dps seemed to be about the same as it was before, albeit our rogues don't really have amazing gear, the fact that it does increase raid dps (as slightly as it may be) and seems to do roughly the same damage as Combat swords is promising.

I was wondering if anyone has any logs to compare top geared (or at least better than spatterings of t6 level gear) rogues as Hemo vs combat.

[Kazekin]

Hands down, my favorite spec would have to be 21/0/40 Hemorhage Swords. Alot of people say its not good for arena, but I think it varries from person to person. If you know how to use your spec right, you'll be unstopable. I rape ass with that spec and people sometimes wonder how.

However that is for PvP. For PvE, I'd choose a combat backstab daggers spec. I started doing Karazhan with my guild for the first time with a [The Night Blade] and [Retainer's Blade], and we only wiped on Netherspite and Prince. I topped DPS charts and the rotation is fairly simple. Start with a cheapshot/ambush depending on the resist of the target, Slice and Dice, then keep backstabbing and using envenom/eviscerate, but make sure slice n dice is still up.

[nxapplehead]

Even if you rape the dps charts with x/x/x spec over and over, you're dpsing in kara. If you meant PvE as in kara raids, or even ZA, then yes your spec which you've been using is dps-competitive. However, more than often, it's in relation to 25man raids.
Not really in reference to your post kaze, because I'm in no position to comment on rogue dps. It's just that kara dps isnt PvE dps.

[lambach]

LOL 10 mans...
LOL Daggers....

[Cubs7379]

hemo owns
true story

[Chris]

hemo owns
true story

You can come up with a better post than that.

[Chris]

Hands down, my favorite spec would have to be 21/0/40 Hemorhage Swords. Alot of people say its not good for arena, but I think it varries from person to person. If you know how to use your spec right, you'll be unstopable. I rape ass with that spec and people sometimes wonder how.

However that is for PvP. For PvE, I'd choose a combat backstab daggers spec. I started doing Karazhan with my guild for the first time with a [The Night Blade] and [Retainer's Blade], and we only wiped on Netherspite and Prince. I topped DPS charts and the rotation is fairly simple. Start with a cheapshot/ambush depending on the resist of the target, Slice and Dice, then keep backstabbing and using envenom/eviscerate, but make sure slice n dice is still up.
Envenom you say? Not sure why you would bother with envenom, and in a 10 man, I'd put rupture on everything that bleeds (I do in 25 mans too, but that's of little importance to you.)

Combat daggers < Combat Swords, just so you know. They still haven't fixed the damage disparity.

[Shane'O mac]

Hey Chris, I notice you and Luxx sport just about the same gear give a little take a little in stats from gems and what not.

But he is still combat swords where you did the Hemo change. Have you 2 been competing much or is it hands down your Hemo build is better then, equal to, or less then his Dammage done and DpS?

edit: I guess it would be a little off to compare, you have more AP and crit then him on the armory D:

[Goretex]

New badge boots are the new hotness :/

[Chris]

Hey Chris, I notice you and Luxx sport just about the same gear give a little take a little in stats from gems and what not.

But he is still combat swords where you did the Hemo change. Have you 2 been competing much or is it hands down your Hemo build is better then, equal to, or less then his Dammage done and DpS?

edit: I guess it would be a little off to compare, you have more AP and crit then him on the armory D:

He's never in the same group. He's also a raid leader so he has other things to worry about during encounters, I just get to push the button.

[Benix]

purple font on dark background is ftl

[-Cru-]

I switched to hemo and my dps has been substationally improved both in raids and pvp. Quite a happy chap atm.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oxZZxMe0MGRsxst
That build is doing a very good job.

[Chris]

What was your build before?

[-Cru-]

Mutilate 41/20/0 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboEMoizVo0eV0bV

[Chris]

Mutilate 41/20/0 - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboEMoizVo0eV0bV

Lol. That explains a lot.

[lambach]

I was a prot warrior, then i specced MS, and I saw a HUGE increase in DMG! It was insane!

[Dodgy]

not as much as my switch from resto to feral druid.

[tkon]

not as much as my switch from resto to feral druid.

-.-

[Shane'O mac]

Still think a deep Subtle build like that is to deep to spend points in..

If you are a dagger rogue, and Im guessing you are with that mut build you posted with, the points are spent in the wrong place for a sustained damage in raids. It looks more like a PvP build.

As a dagger rogue (which Im not) I still say Combat daggers or a better raid Mut build would be best for raiding.

but that first deep subtle lolStep build you posted, does in fact have more sustained damage for raiding then the mut build you posted.

[Goretex]

About Shadowstep being more dps then mutilate...

[Shane'O mac]

About Shadowstep being more dps then mutilate... yea, Im second guessing myself on that post too... But his mut build isn't that great, and I still haven't tried a Hemo build for raids. So yea now I say, I would be guessing its more sustained damage.

I personally have not see a reliable Mut build in raids, good but not that great. As for a Hemo build, I would guess the damage done would be a more sustained damage source with reliable white damage, even with how deep he went with his build in subtle (never will I say a ShS build be worth the points, as for now).

[Gimbleflick]

Hrmm.. I love my hemo build for raids.. I end up in top 5 and then goto PvP and survive.. i'm 7 - 30 - 24 i dropped adrenaline rush for preperation for the arenas mainly. but hemo disappears to fast in 25 man raids, its good in the 5 and 10 mans. I can usually keep it constantly up though.

[-Cru-]

I use swords, or the best weapons i can get my hands on seeing as tho hemo isnt restricted to a weapon spec. Its not too deep in Sub tree, still pump out good raid dps whilst having fun in pvp. Also gives funny moments like double evasion tanking a boss with cheat death - good fun.

[Zyz]

but hemo disappears to fast in 25 man raids, its good in the 5 and 10 mans. I can usually keep it constantly up though. Unless they hotfixed it, hemo charges are being used by spells (without any damage benefit).
It should be alot easier once they fix it to only work with physical damage.

[-Cru-]

In patch 2.3.2 hemo is getting nerfed. At least that is what i hear.

[Zyz]

In patch 2.3.2 hemo is getting nerfed. At least that is what i hear.
It's being changed from 125% weapon damage to 110% weapon damage.
But they are also increasing the debuff damage increase, so it should be better overall for pve.